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How interfaith values support New York’s Reproductive Health Act

New York Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo, right, signs Reproductive Health Act Legislation during a ceremony on Jan. 22, 2019, in the Red Room at the State Capitol in Albany, N.Y. With the new law, New York state enacts one of the nation's strongest protections for abortion rights, a move that state leaders say was needed to safeguard those rights should the U.S. Supreme Court overturn Roe v. Wade. Also pictured are attorney Sarah Weddington, front left, who successfully argued Roe v Wade before the Supreme Court; New York State assembly Speaker Carl Heastie, back left; New York State Senate Leader Andrea Stewart-Cousins, D-Yonkers, standing center; and Democratic Lt. Gov Kathy Hochul, back right. (Darren McGee/Office of Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo via AP)

(RNS) — New York state just enacted the Reproductive Health Act (RHA), which updates and strengthens the right to choose an abortion in the state. High-profile criticism of the law has come principally from the Catholic Church, including calls for the state’s Catholic governor, Andrew Cuomo, to be excommunicated.

Yet the law reflects the values shared by many pro-choice clergy and laypeople committed to Protestant, Jewish and Catholic beliefs.

At the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC), the largest national interfaith, abortion rights organization, we approach the highly personal reproductive decision-making process guided first and foremost by compassion. We acknowledge the complex, challenging and widely varying circumstances each woman confronts and the impact of these choices on her family.

This comes as no surprise to those who know our history.

Our organization evolved from the pre-Roe Clergy Consultation Service (CCS), whose more than 1,000 interfaith members — ministers, rabbis and some priests and nuns — acted on conscience to defy abortion bans. Starting in 1967, they quietly offered women all-options pastoral care and, if requested, referrals to safe but illegal abortion providers.

In New York, CCS members had also been advocating for making abortion legal, which occurred with a dramatic, tie-breaking vote on April 9, 1970. That law had been on the books until last week’s passage of RHA.

Today’s religiously based opposition to RHA stems from the teaching that an embryo is the equivalent of a person with rights of its own. However, not all religions agree on when life begins. Some focus on fetal viability. Others say that human life begins at conception or once a baby takes its first breath.

Our values cherish women’s free will to make decisions to control their own bodies and lives. This freedom is a gift from God, who created each person in the divine image, entrusting each with the right and capacity to discern our personal courses of action.

New York’s new law takes a significant step toward protecting that free will. It ensures that the right to choose an abortion in the state will endure, even if the U.S. Supreme Court should overturn the federal protections under Roe v. Wade. It also protects the safety of women who opt for abortions, because, as the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists has stated, where abortion is legal, it is safe.

Separating religious beliefs from public policy is another bedrock of pro-choice religious values.

Policies such as RHA allow people of all religions to follow their own faiths and consciences in their own lives. Abortion foes for years have strived to shape laws and regulations that impose their own strict religious tenets on others in our pluralistic society. Pro-choice people of many faiths, on the other hand, agree that when a woman is making reproductive decisions, others’ religious beliefs should not interfere.

Pro-choice religious values respect the purpose of reproductive health care centers and the work of health care providers dedicated to meeting the reproductive needs women have discerned for themselves. Clergy of many faiths have joined RCRC in blessing abortion clinics as sacred spaces for serving women seeking medical help.

Dr. Willie Parker, an abortion provider and RCRC leader whose Christian faith supports his work, has written about how deeply he has been influenced by the biblical story of the Good Samaritan. The story teaches us to shed our self-interest and show true caring for people in need.

New York’s new statute supports this value in two ways.

First, it decriminalizes abortion care by removing it from the penal code. Criminalization of health care providers, and even of pregnant women attempting to end their own pregnancies, derives from belief in fetal personhood, which not all faiths accept.

Second, RHA makes abortion care more accessible, because a wider range of health care professionals can provide the procedure. In addition to doctors, the law permits abortion care by any health care professional who is licensed, certified or authorized and has abortion within their scope of practice. This includes midwives, physician assistants and nurse practitioners.

RHA permits abortions within 24 weeks of pregnancy or at another point when a fetus is determined not to be viable or when abortion would protect the woman’s health or save her life.

We support women having the right to access abortion care later in pregnancy. In fact, one year ago, RCRC held an interfaith ceremony bringing blessings on one of the very few later-term abortion clinics in the nation, Dr. LeRoy Carhart’s clinic in Bethesda, Md.

Dr. Carhart works with girls, women and couples facing an array of wrenching circumstances that would test any mother to be. Many had written letters to Dr. Carhart thanking him and his staff for the gentle and respectful treatment they received in very challenging times. This is the kind of compassion our values embrace — giving others the freedom to look deep into their hearts and to be supported in doing what they feel is best without shame or stigma.

Passage of RHA is a landmark — the first time in six years of trying that the law made it through the state Senate. For pro-choice people of faith, however, the law is also a victory of another sort.

It is the next step in the battle progressive faith communities have been fighting since the 1960s, acting on their consciences to resist abortion bans that forced pregnant women, regardless of their circumstances, to either bear a child or risk harm or even death to seek an abortion.

To pro-choice people of faith, that was wrong then, and it’s wrong now.

Rev. Dr. Cari Jackson is the executive for religious leadership and advocacy at the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice. The views expressed in this commentary do not necessarily represent those of Religion News Service.

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Rev. Dr. Cari Jackson

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  • I knew how the article would play out by reading the title; yet I became more sick to my stomach as I read on.
    A reverend that is part of an organization that supports abortion “care”? A reverend that belongs to an organization that supports “later” term abortions? Are you kidding me? What denomination? How can any reverend support man taking what God gave?
    We the faithful are truly doomed.

  • “We the faithful are truly doomed”

    According to your faith, you are not doomed. If you think you are doomed, then you are not faithful. Perhaps you should look more carefully at your own lack of faith and worry less about other people’s lack of faith.

  • As a female the use of the words reproductive health for abortion is highly offensive. This law allows murder plain and simple. This article is propaganda.

  • Those who continue to believe will be saved – yes.
    But many souls will be lost because they have to shepherds to guide them.

  • Being agnostic about when life begins is poor reasoning for such an expansive view of human freedom.

  • Finally a state has taken a move in the right direction, passing a law that values women and acknowledges their rights to make their own choices. I suspect more states will follow this example. This is a great moral step in the right direction.

  • Nope. One has to be born to be murdered. There is no protecting the unborn with fetus worshipers. It is a euphemism for reducing women to property of the state.

  • That is because you are working under the narcissistic notion that you have any say into the lives and personal decisions of people. Plenty of religions and faiths do not share your infantile and irrational view that a fetus is sacred and people are worthless.

  • Funny how the view of human freedom from fetus worshipers involves enslaving all women capable of being pregnant.

  • I’m past the point of controlling anyone – not really my issue.
    I am saddened by the fact that the left approves of infanticide.
    You cry about auchwitz; yet you celebrate this – odd and sad.

  • Wow, self righteous preening and defamatory remarks. How typical.
    You want to turn women into chattel property like Nazis.
    One has to be born to be a victim of infanticide
    Nazis opposed abortion, just like you. I show concern for people murdered.
    You show no concern for people.

  • RHA permits abortions within 24 weeks of pregnancy or at another point
    when a fetus is determined not to be viable or when abortion would
    protect the woman’s health or save her life.

  • Deflect all you want.
    Democrats are preening about their ability to kill without recourse.
    Maybe if women (and female reverends who promote abortion) don’t understand that killing is wrong, they should become chattel.

  • Well done article. What a woman wants and needs to further her life and dreams really does matter. Her struggle with a difficult decision should be respected.

    I do think we can draw some lines around procedures after a fetus is viable – but not at the cost or risk to the mother.

    Good to see an article from someone who argues a position of choice.

  • I am not a narcissistic self righteous fool who thinks their opinion on such matters is what is important to the issue.

    It is entirely up to the woman bearing the pregnancy to answer that. I am not the one who has any business making such decisions.

  • Deflection is what you do. Pretending reducing women to chattel property is somehow “protecting the unborn”. Which is about as far from the truth as one gets. You are the person here with the disdain and contempt for people. But somehow you want to look like a moral upstanding person with feigned concern for a fetus.

    Not buying it for a minute.

    It is just an excuse for you to act obnoxiously and attack women and their personhood.

  • Abortionists used to claim that those they aborted were just zygotes, blobs of cells, not really human, so it was ok to kill them.

    But now, with NY allowing the child to be killed just seconds before it leaves the birth canal – and hence developmentally the same as it would be a few seconds later, it becomes obvious that was just a smoke screen.

    It’s been about infanticide all along.

  • “Today’s religiously based opposition to RHA stems from the teaching that an embryo is the equivalent of a person with rights of its own.”

    But its mother is not a person at all. She is considered property of the state.

  • Take heart. Christ cried out,”It is finished.” Then it was that one of the Romans knew it, and said it: “Surely this man was the son of God.” He knew from watching other crucifixions, that Jesus was special. This time it is different. As sure as I’m sitting here, America is going to see some of these late term abortions and infanticides. Then they will know that truly these are God’s little sons and daughters.

  • Even Jesus cried out “My God my God, why have you forsaken me?” He was looking at the sins of all, that he had to bear to save us. Sin unleashed such as abortion will harm this nation — all of us.

  • So this has become a religious sacrifice now? Which god do you worship, that requires this hideous deed?

  • Nine MEN in black robes, (that is, a majority of the nine men), imposed the 1973 Abortion-On-Demand decision on all Americans. Men, women, and babies alike. Those nine guys weren’t nervous about saying their views.

    So if THOSE guys can deal upfront and express opinions, you and I can do the same thing.

    Therefore, what sayest thou on the fetus, especially the survivable fetuses? Are they “Worthless”? Hm?

  • Today’s religiously based opposition to RHA stems from the fact that we promised the world to never repeat the horrors of the holocaust….

    And yet, as we speak; legislators in some states fight to be more wicked than their peers; proposing that it be legal to kill human beings moments before or directly after birth – all in the name of women’s rights. The right to freely kill maybe.

    The state and those that promote this are shameful.

    [and] Jesus wept….

  • RHA allows abortion up to the point of birth. I think the baby is pretty viable then – no?
    But, a women should have the ability to terminate her pregnancy so as not to complicate her life….. /s

  • Bullcrap. Nazis banned abortion. You have supported their white supremacist successors. You support enslaving women like they did.

    Bible thumpers like you are more likely to welcome a new Holocaust than prevent one.

  • Day after day, more state democrats show how they hate the innocent.
    Keep going. Let the American people see how you hate the unborn.

  • Rule of law and civil law liberties are always an inconvenience to you. Go figure.

    Babies are born. They are not affected by abortion rights.

    You made it clear you do not respect people and their rights. Any pretense of concern for the unborn is phony. Preening and self righteous blubbering all to act obnoxiously for its own sake. You support enslaving women to satisfy your ego. How immoral.

  • “Our values cherish women’s free will to make decisions to control their own bodies and lives.” Hah! At every step of the way, our society tries to implicate Christians in this travesty. We will NOT be part of this. We will not pay for this. Doctors will not have to do these disgusting procedures.

  • Makes no difference innocent or not.

    You hate all people.

    Any excuse to revile, discriminate or attack others is used.

    Contempt drips from on your posts here. You feign concern for the unborn but really it is just a pretense to turn women into chattel property if the state.

    It’s telling that some of the most vile and hateful people out there are fetus worshipers. It goes well with their disdain for others. Sorry buddy, but there is no way that I am buying you give a crap about anybody, let alone the unborn.

  • Now we not only have the magical birth canal but the extended imaginary birth canal that follows the poor baby until he/she is dead?

  • Wow that is stupid and canned. Babies are born.

    You are too dishonest to acknowledge the physical difference between born and unborn. Yes it makes a difference. If it can live outside the womb, it’s existence is not premised on its mother’s will. Otherwise, it’s not a person.

    Even more ridiculous is the claim by fetus worshipers that a fetus is a person but it’s mother is chattel property of the state.

    Why should I even pretend you are concerned with human beings if you are so contemptuous of mother’s and their existence.

    Take your self righteous preening and shove it. You are full of crap and are just expressing your hatred of people.

  • Three situations come immediately to mind

    1. The fetus is determined to be stillborn (no longer “viable”)

    2. The fetus is determined to have a disease, such as muscular distrophy, wherein the swallow reflex is gone and the baby would live for only a short time, chocking to death.
    3. The mother has developed a medical condition which affects a major organ and giving birth would complicate or endanger her life. She would have to make a horrible choice – her life or her baby’s

    While none of these three things are “common” they happen often enough to require protection under the law.

    It’s certainly NOT because she has decided, at the last minute, that she no longer wants the baby, like she no longer wants a dress or a pair of shoes. That would be as ludicrous as it would be cruel, and, as specified under RHA, illegal.

    Hope that’s helpful to you.

  • “Nazis banned abortion.”

    It was inefficient.

    It was easier and cheaper to just exterminate people before they were conceived.

  • Passing a law that treats unborn women as infestations and purports a woman has a right to choose who lives and who dies.

    Unless the word “moral” changed meaning since yesterday, the statement “This is a great moral step in the right direction.” is incoherent.

  • As usual you’ve scrambled your facts. The Reich needed Germans to sustain itself, and on the books were strict anti-abortion laws EXCEPT for racial grounds. You could abort Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, and so on all day every day.

    When that didn’t reduce the undesirables fast enough, euthanasia for “undesirables” was adopted, and then of course the Final Solution.

  • I see you’re still engaging in preening and self righteous blubbering all to act obnoxiously for its own sake.

  • “I am not a narcissistic self righteous fool who thinks their opinion on such matters is what is important to the issue.”

    I’m game.

    Exactly what kind of narcissistic self righteous fool are you?

  • “High-profile criticism of the law has come principally from the Catholic Church, including calls for the state’s Catholic governor, Andrew Cuomo, to be excommunicated.” is, quite fortunately, a blatant lie. From the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, the Orthodox churches, the Orthodox Jewish community, the Islamic community, through the Catholic Church people of faith – and many without any religious beliefs – have spoken out loudly against this horrific law.

    This particular lie is designed to promote the idea that the uproar is all about those pesky Catholics trying to impose their religious beliefs on the population at large. Dr. Jackson comes from a tradition of Catholic blaming in what might fairly be called the “alternate faith community”.

    Dr. Jackson is clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church which was founded for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender families and communities. It prefers to report number of congregations rather than number of members. The reason becomes obvious since the MCC unofficially reports that it may have as many as 40,000 members. That makes it about 1/10th the size of the number of Messianic Jews and about the size of the rapidly disappearing Polish National Catholic Church.

    She calls herself “pro-life” as opposed to “pro-fetal” and participated in the “blessing” of one of the few late term abortion clinics in January, 2018, in Bethesda, Maryland.

    https://www{DOT}washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/01/29/clergy-gather-to-bless-an-abortion-clinic-which-provides-rare-late-term-abortions-in-bethesda/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e5675972a01f

    The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, which until 1993 was the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights, represents a tiny fraction of the American religious spectrum and some members – Catholics for Choice for example – are tiny organizations in opposition to their own churches.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Coalition_for_Reproductive_Choice#Member_organizations

    The real religious of New York and the United States will, of course, disregard this tiny fig leaf the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice tried to place over what can only be termed a barbaric law contrary to Christian, Islamic, Jewish, and natural law values.

  • The Guttmacher Institute states that there are about 12k late term abortions a year.
    Reasons according to their data:
    1) NOT because of fetal abnormalities or life [of the mother] endangerment….. but;
    a) raising children alone,
    b) depressed or using drugs,
    c) conflict with male partner or experiencing domestic violence,
    d) wasn’t sure if child was wanted, and
    e) mother was young or nulliparous.
    These reasons make up 80% of late term abortions.
    Guttmacher also states that the women describe their decision to abort in the third trimester easy or very easy.
    This is the reality in America.
    I hope this is helpful to you….

  • Yup. Spuddie is so smart yet can’t figure out that a human being is coming down the birth canal. The gal that spouts off constantly about science and logic, yet is intellectually dishonest when it comes to valuing the life of a human – all because of the ability to legally kill.
    The democrats must be so proud.
    There was a time when democrats stuck up for the little guy – no?
    Now they stand up for big-abortion.

  • Nope. Addressing the preening and canned nonsense. You guys are working off such a brain dead script.

  • So, what part of “human life” do you not understand?

    I assume you’ve verified that no limit of any kind is part of the Reproductive Health Act.

    No need to admit it – you’ve already effectively acknowledged it.

  • “Why Do Women Have Abortions?”, “Family Planning Perspectives” 20(4):169-76 · July 1989

    Jacqueline E Darroch of the Guttmacher Institute was co-author.

    A PDF of it can be obtained at:

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/19913647_Why_Do_Women_Have_Abortions

    The Alan Guttmacher Institute, an affiliate of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, collected questionnaires in 1987 from 1,900 women who were at abortion clinics procuring abortions. Of the 1,900, “420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks.” These 420 women were asked to choose among a menu of reasons why they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies.

    Only two percent (2%) said “a fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy,” compared to 71% who responded “did not recognize that she was pregnant or misjudged gestation,” 48% who said “found it hard to make arrangements,” and 33% who said “was afraid to tell her partner or parents.”

    The report did not indicate that ANY of the 420 late abortions were performed because of maternal health problems.

    Glad to be of assistance.

  • I gave the citation. Let’s watch the reaction.

    Other citations of interest:

    https://lozierinstitute.org/the-reality-of-late-term-abortion-procedures/

    https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/state-policies-later-abortions

    https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/truth-about-late-term-abortions/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy

    You need a snow blower to get through the stuff being thrown into this discussion by the usual suspects.

  • I am not sure !00% but I don’t think this speaks specifically to late term as defined and understood by the general public – 16 weeks can extend for another 8 weeks before reaching late term abortions. I one read there is an odd overlap between terminology – late term abortion and pre-term birth.

  • I read the commas and the subsequent ‘or’. Changes the meaning. Having known someone in which an abortion was medically recommended but declined, I understood it to affirm that a woman could also choose to carry a baby despite the potential for loss of life or severe risk of medical complications for both mother and baby. S 2259aa – 2 And specific to abortion S2259-bb 1

  • That’s been my experience of Connelly. He’s like that boy in the 3rd grade who sat behind you and pulled your pigtails b/c he secretly has a crush on you but doesn’t have the insight to understand what’s really going on in his head so it comes out all sideways and weird – oh, yes, and violent. I usually respond once and then ignore him. Which is precisely what I plan to do this time. He’ll respond again, soon, with some vintage snark. In 5, 4, 3 . . . . .

  • Mr. Brant’s paragraph 2 is not correct. It appears to me Mr. Brant is inferring a child can be aborted moments before its otherwise birth. I read 24 weeks.

  • Ah, another snarky-no-substance-troll-remark that disrespects the moral agency and intelligence of women. No woman has an abortion as if she were choosing a pair of shoes or the flavor of ice cream. To think otherwise is to be so misogynist as to qualify for not ever being allowed to have sex with a woman ever again.

  • Actually I did and what I find most interesting is the South Australia data which as a percentage is greater than US late term abortions but which indicates that over half of these relate to fetal anomalies/defects. So I am not sure why this would be any different than the US.

    However it is interesting (and troubling) to note that maternal death rates during child birth in the US has doubled to 18.5 per 100,000 births between 1979 and 2013. Also an estimated 11,300 babies die on the first day of birth in the US https://www.nbcnews.com/healthmain/more-us-babies-die-their-first-day-68-other-countries-6C9700437 with a pre-term birth rate one of the factors along with birth complications, birth defects and infections. And 23000 babies did not survive past their first birthday And again because of first day death overlap, pre-term birth, pregnancy complications and birth defects were significant factors.

  • Blessed is the man who never put any woman into a situation where she wanted or needed to consider an abortion. Some of that is prudence. Sometimes it is luck. Sometimes it is knowing when to quit—-and get the vasectomy. Some guys should have quit before they started. Those are the ones who are familiar with the term, “baby mama”. The abortion-reduction debate should be a discussion with and about guys, what to do, what not to do. We’d have a better debate if we started from the premise that most abortions are a man’s error and a man’s fault.

  • Another self-righteous troll who ignores the statistics for the ability to kill. To think otherwise is so be so arrogant as to qualify for sterilization to lose the privilege of having a child.

  • No one is a reverend. People are not reverendized. They are ordained clergy; priests, pastors, rectors, bishops, deacons, ministers, etc. And in some of their denominations, not all, they are given the honorific, the Reverend, when spoken of or addressed. Members of the hierarchy are sometimes given the honorific the Right Reverend or the Most Reverend. In Anglican circles some are given the honorific the Venerable or the Very Reverend. But again, no one is a reverend.

  • I shall preface this comment with the fact that I am not against this bill.

    However, the bill does allow for abortion beyond 24 weeks if the healthcare provider determines that to continue the pregnancy would endanger the life of the mother and she chooses to terminate, rather than carry the fetus to full term.

    However, Brant interprets the law to a ridiculous extreme. The bill does not provide for abortion on demand just prior to birth.

  • proposing that it be legal to kill human beings moments before or directly after birth

    That is not provided in the NY law. That is your own made up exaggeration.

  • Actually there is, with two provisos; the fetus is dead or the pregnancy is endangering the life of the mother.

  • The research focuses on a relatively small group of American women, those who end pregnancies after the first trimester, which lasts 12 weeks. As of 2006, 88 percent of abortions occurred before the end of the first trimester, making second-trimester abortions relatively rare. These later abortions, however, are more expensive, more difficult to come by, and carry more medical risk than earlier procedures, according to the Guttmacher Institute, a reproductive health research organization.

  • That’s really old data. Almost 30 years old.

    Things have changed since that data was collected.

  • § 2599-bb. Abortion. 1. A health care practitioner licensed, certified, or authorized under title eight of the education law, acting with-in his or her lawful scope of practice, may perform an abortion when, according to the practitioner’s reasonable and good faith professional judgment based on the facts of the patient’s case: the patient is within twenty-four weeks from the commencement of pregnancy, or there is an absence of fetal viability, or the abortion is necessary to protect the patient’s life or health.

    I take it you’re presuming “the patient is within twenty-four weeks from the commencement of pregnancy” PRECLUDES the weeks that follows EXCEPT FOR an absence of fetal viability or the abortion is necessary to protect the patient’s life or health.

    I included the Guttmacher article to dispel that misconception.

    In New York state a series of court decisions make clear – and also legally binding – that being unhappy is a matter of the patient’s health.

    If having the baby would make you displeased, and undergoing an abortion would alleviate that displeasure, in a New York context that meets the requirements of “protect the patient’s life or health”.

  • So there is some indication that the folks in South Australia have somewhat higher moral sensitivities than in the USA. Further research is required.

    The increase in the maternal death rate tracks the increase in the abuse of certain drugs in the USA, which is also leading to an increase in deaths of males who obviously not pregnant.

    Both are more prevalent in inner city settings.

  • I certainly hope you’re not insinuating that women are not interested in facts.

    You may want to check out Shawnie5.

    Getting your facts in order BEFORE posting is always helpful.

  • I do not believe you can support “No woman has an abortion as if she were choosing a pair of shoes or the flavor of ice cream.” with any facts.

  • That certainly disposes of those pesky value issues and the questions that grading the worthiness of human lives ask.

  • “I shall preface this comment with the fact that I am not against this bill.”

    It is not a bill. It is a law.

    It is a law of the State of New York, and so it will operate in that legal environment, which means:

    https://disqus.com/home/discussion/religionnews/how_interfaith_values_support_new_yorks_reproductive_health_act/#comment-4318879836

    So rather than Brant interpreting the law to a ridiculous extreme, what we find is suckers taking the bait, thinking:

    “…. may perform an abortion when, according to the practitioner’s reasonable and good faith professional judgment based on the facts of the patient’s case: the patient is within twenty-four weeks from the commencement of pregnancy, or there is an absence of fetal viability, or the abortion is necessary to protect the patient’s life or health.”

    means what it would mean in ordinary English conversation.

    The actual operative clause in that legal fig leaf is “according to the practitioner’s reasonable and good faith professional judgment”.

  • Please Spuddie, don’t deny biology! I guess you don’t know about birds, either? I am actually engaging in the human equivalent of allopreening:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preening_(bird)

    This is done to help the flock at large. Birds do not dispose of ectoparasites in the way you so rudely suggest I do.

    So now being pro-life is a hate crime? I was afraid that might be coming.

  • Why don’t you run along now and go somewhere where you can grow up and learn to respect and admire a woman’s mind and heart and spirit and not try to control her body and her life and her future and how she defines her family. Then, maybe we can talk like adults.

  • I can easily understand the emotional and religious appeal of being ardently anti-abortion. I don’t find it silly at all.

    Still, we have to look at who the proponents are: almost exclusively conservative Protestants and conservative Catholics. The issue can be almost completely defined on religious terms. Despite the use of scientific terminology, there is no doubt that the issue is the soul.

    Extreme anti-abortion views (personhood from conception) must be marketed as scientific because labeling it as religious automatically raises the hackles of anyone concerned with religious liberty and the First Amendment. It also raises the hackles of anyone looking at the issue with common sense (as opposed to doctrinally.) While the conceptus is human, just as hair follicles are human, it isn’t even remotely a person on any intuitive scale.

    As the Roe court noted, as viability is approached, there is more general concern and the court grants the state greater flexibility in regulating abortion.

    On a practical level, virtually all abortions are performed before 20 weeks. Women who have good healthcare, sufficient wealth and transportation, tend to get their abortions early. Younger, less stable women have more difficulties and their abortions tend to come later. These women are often unable to reach the clinic in an expeditious fashion. The pregnancy may not have been recognized early, they may lack financial resources or they just don’t know how to handle the situation. From their standpoint, late abortions (after 20 weeks) are a serious problem because of the drastically higher cost. Late term abortions can be 4x more expensive.

    The small number performed after that are for increasingly dire reasons.

    The late-third trimester abortions are generally to remove a dead fetus or one that is unlikely to survive outside of the womb or is severely deformed. These issues often cannot be diagnosed or confirmed earlier. They are not reasonably labeled “abortion on demand” or “convenience” procedures. They are tragedies.

    I respect Catholic doctrine for its long-term consistency. Their strict anti-abortion is a staple of their religion and is consistent with their stands on war (just war restrictions), euthanasia, etc. Aside from their early positions on the Doctrine of Discovery (slaughter for profit), Catholic doctrine really is pro-life.

    The problem with Catholics is that they have always viewed themselves as a super-state, who should be the arbiters of legal morality, heedless of the rights of conscience of other people. Yes, folks, they are the one true religion and have the right to rule over the rest of us.

    Conservative Protestants, on the other hand, have no genuinely pro-life consistency or background. Their anti-abortion creds date only to the videos of Francis Schaeffer. Before that, abortion was a “Catholic issue.” The current Protestant lust for blood is legendary: death penalty, pushing Armageddon in Palestine, dumping on refugees, letting people starve because the blessed are rich and you must not be one of the saved if you aren’t (prosperity gospel), slavery.

    Conservative Protestants have been steeped in blood since our founding and it continues to this day. These folks not only have the true religion but they are aggressively finding ways to rule over us. Just look at the Trump appointees. Check their dominionist / reconstructionist beliefs. Now some (Colorado) want to make abortion a capital crime.

    Whether Protestant or Catholic, abortion is primarily a religious issue. Science is just a smokescreen. We don’t legislate doctrine in this country.

  • That was silly and incoherent. Denying biology is necessary to your position. It permits people to make ridiculous positions where a fetus is a person but it’s mother is nothing more than property.

  • Fetus worshipers only want to discuss matters in their own dishonest terms. Mostly to discus irrelevant things and miss the real point entirely.

    I don’t ever have to give a crap about what you think about what choices a woman makes with her body. Your input is not ever required nor asked for. You can moan all you want about such things but it doesn’t ever become an argument for giving you such a say in the matter.

    None of your complaints gets to reduce women to property status that you seek. So I don’t have to play along with you.

  • And I don’t respect men who don’t understand that a woman does not choose abortion as if she were choosing a flavor of ice cream; rather, a woman chooses abortion the way an animal with its foot caught in an animal trap must choose to either chew off its own foot or stay there and slowly die. When you can understand that sort of dilemma that every woman faces who has an unplanned, unexpected, unwanted pregnancy or one she desperately wants but it will either mean that the child she has will be deformed and handicapped or live a few hours and die a painful death or that she will compromise her own life, leaving her spouse without a partner and her other children without a mother, then maybe you’ll be adult enough and man enough to have a real conversation that involves more than just harsh judgment about something you’ll never have to go through.

  • I don’t worship any God, since there are none to worship! AND this is a great deal that recognizes that women have value and the right to make their own health care decisions.

  • I don’t respect women who place self above the life she chose to help create.
    I don’t respect women who chose to destroy what God has created.
    I don’t respect women who hide behind a definition to cover for their selfishness.
    Maybe when you mature to the point that you have a bit of humility; we can have a conversation of what it means to really be a mother.

  • Yes, it’s interesting that the traditional man does what is divinely instilled into him – that of protecting his family.

  • I am a mother of six – one severely handicapped and profoundly retarded – and a grandmother to seven. None of my children have had an abortion but if she did, I would stand by her. You see, when you’re an adult, you know that you can be morally pro-life and politically pro-choice. It’s not hard. It just takes intelligence, maturity and compassion, and knowing that only God can judge another human being.

    I’m only really glad that you are not my life partner nor the father of my children. You have zero understanding and less compassion. You’re not man enough to be either a good husband or a good father.

    Grow up.

    Good bye.

  • First you suggested it was “a great moral step”. That raised the question of what you mean by “moral”, which you dodged.

    Now you suggest “that women have value”, which can only mean SOME women have value and SOME do not since we know that roughly half of the prenatal lives ended are female.

    Next we’re treated to “their own health care decisions” although in most cases both mother and fetus are healthy and the abortion is simply backup birth control.

    Any chance you’ll be moving past Slogans 101 and making some substantive comments.

  • “Grow up.” is Susan Humphreys’ line.

    “You see, when you’re an adult, you know that you can be morally pro-life and politically pro-choice. It’s not hard. It just takes intelligence, maturity and compassion, and knowing that only God can judge another human being.”

    I see you took Slogans 101 with Ms. Humphreys.

    It does not take a lot of intelligence to end someone’s life.

    Nor does it take any compassion to use abortion as birth control.

    As to maturity, mature people take responsibility for their decisions.

    The fact that after life has ended God renders a final judgment does not alleviate humans who are living from making and enforcing just laws.

    At this point your batting average is 000.

  • No. There mother is a person and so is the fetus. In some states where a pregnant woman is murdered its considered a double homicide. That means the baby in the womb is a human being.

  • Oh, poor Markie. Still only able to take cheap right-wing talking point potshots at women he disagrees with -and completely disrespects. When you grow up and you and your 12 year old buddy Parker are able to have mature, adult conversations, then maybe we can talk. Until then, have fun playing war games with your finger guns (Pow-pow, phew-phew) and trading baseball cards. Buh-bye.

  • “Oh, poor Markie.” is:

    – classic evasion

    – Slogans 101 again

    – An indication your position took a torpedo at the waterline

    – the kind of thing you say right before you put your fingers in your ears and go “Nyah, nyah, nyah!”

  • First there is mental and physical health considerations, which you don’t seem concerned about! There are also issues about family situations and the “health” of the family, that you also don’t seem concerned about. All of these are factors that go into a woman’s decision making process, but then again you aren’t concerned about the women AND to be blunt not even about the fetus–since you ignore the reality that the health of a fetus is dependent upon the MENTAL as well as the physical health of the woman!

  • A mother is not a person to you. According to you she is your property to command. Her body and decisions concerning it are supposedly under your command. She is property to you

  • Well, yes and no.

    What the Nazis wanted were lots of German-speaking Aryans.

    So, they passed very restrictive abortion laws – most of which are still on the books – for Aryans.

    They also insituted the Lebensborn program

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn

    to raise the birth rate of “Aryan” children of persons classified as “racially pure and healthy”.

    In addition they took children from conquered areas who met the right characteristic back to Germany to be raised as little Germans.

    However, there were no laws restricting abortions on Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, and other “undesirables”.

    In short, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

  • “First there is mental and physical health considerations, which you don’t seem concerned about!”

    Which of your slogans are you offering that in support of?

    Your “family situations and the ‘health’ of the family” is meaninglessly vague, which of course you know.

    Cutting through the slogans and debris what we can discern is abortion on demand, no conditions.

    And you call that “moral” and think it is a sign of “compassion”?

  • Did JP command her to become pregnant?

    It is worth pointing out, however, that you are clearly foursquare behind the prenatal life as property.

  • “… (A) woman does not choose abortion as if she were choosing a flavor of ice cream; rather, a woman chooses abortion the way an animal with its foot caught in an animal trap must choose to either chew off its own foot or stay there and slowly die.”

    Apparently you have no idea at all why women choose abortion.

    “Why Do Women Have Abortions?”, “Family Planning Perspectives” 20(4):169-76 · July 1989

    A PDF of it can be obtained at:

    https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F19913647_Why_Do_Women_Have_Abortions%3AOLAbLeaVgI2cCCUwMbkddnPbwCQ&cuid=4022104

    The Alan Guttmacher Institute, an affiliate of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, collected questionnaires in 1987 from 1,900 women who were at abortion clinics procuring abortions. Of the 1,900, “420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks.” These 420 women were asked to choose among a menu of reasons why they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies.

    Only two percent (2%) said “a fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy,” compared to 71% who responded “did not recognize that she was pregnant or misjudged gestation,” 48% who said “found it hard to make arrangements,” and 33% who said “was afraid to tell her partner or parents.”

    The report did not indicate that ANY of the 420 late abortions were performed because of maternal health problems or ANY of the other reasons you offer. And that is just the late term abortions.

    Glad to be of assistance.

  • ” High-profile criticism of the law has come principally from the Catholic Church, ” Then the RCC is doing it right.

  • Well, since were telling war stories; let me share mine.
    I’ve lost two children and have gone to war and seen death in ways you will never comprehend. I have seen men burned to death, crawling out of a tank hatch. I have seen the remains of men split in two; I have seen men who were buried alive.
    It was in those moments that I learned compassion, empathy and humility. It was in those moments that I understood the value of life. Those men felt life being taken from them – and there was nothing they could do to stop it.
    I will never willingly destroy what I did not create. I will never willingly destroy anything for any reason – even in exchange for my own life.
    You are right – I am neither a good man nor a good father. I pray only that Christ is merciful at the moment of my death.

  • “Our values cherish women’s free will to make decisions to control their own bodies and lives. This freedom is a gift from God, who created each person in the divine image, entrusting each with the right and capacity to discern our personal courses of action.” God at no time said to kill your babies, in fact, He condemned those who did offer their babies to idols and then kill them, the only difference is these, and I use the term loosely, “mothers” are murdering their child for the idol of self
    Secondly the child has it’s own body that is being taken advantage of and after 6 days, has it’s own blood type, It’s murder and the mother usually realizes that about a year later because of depression,

  • Your maturity must be *this* tall in order to engage in this conversation. Sorry, little boy. Come back next year after you’ve spent some time among real women who have had to make one of the most difficult, painful, mature, adult decisions in their lives but have no regrets because they know they made the right choice for themselves and their families and are grateful they had the right to do it. Maybe you’ll have the insight and maturity to have this conversation. Buh-bye!

  • Tater-tot, with that stupid comment, you are condemning every soldier who went to war and died to save your life.

  • Saving a baby does not make a woman “chattel” It makes her a mother. Whether she chooses to keep the child or put it up for adoption are her choices – not murder

  • “Your maturity must be ‘this’ tall in order to engage in this conversation. Sorry, little boy.”

    I am sure that approach works with children.

    It is simply a statement that you’re right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

    Stay home with the grandchildren, avoid adults.

  • The medical facts are that in the womb that is a human being. Pro-aborts don’t like facts because they know they expose their evil.

  • “Saving a baby” is a dishonest euphemism for taking control of a woman’s body and making decisions concerning it. There is no baby here. Babies are born. There is no saving here. That is just your ego talking. It is just reducing women to property.

  • Don’t even bother to start that nonsense. Pro-life women receive just as much vitriol as pro-life men, if not more. Not to mention that there are more of us and we are the movement’s primary drivers.

  • “Taking control of a woman’s body and making decisions concerning it” is a dishonest euphemism for deciding human life A trumps human life B, and discarding human life B often in horrid painful ways. It reduces human life B to property.

    It is statement of selfishness taken to its logical extreme.

  • What the hell does “person” have to do with it?

    “Person” is a legal definition which varies with place and time.

    Once Jews were persons in Germany, then they were not.

    Once blacks and Indians were not persons in the USA, then they were.

    Why not use a precise term: human life?

    Because doing that exposes what you’re really talking about.

  • No me tater, look in the mirror for that one.
    BTW – when you dance, do you do the mashed potato? You’re definitely not a sweet potato – they don’t promote murder of innocent children. One needs to be fried to promote that.

  • That was even stupider. Poor analogy is the sign of an irrational position. There is no sane analogous situation between a fetus and a soldier either.

  • Not really Spud – Christians are protecting human lives just like soldiers do. As a liberal, I suppose you can hate soldiers, they hate babies too

  • Well reasoned argument here. Good to see “the other side” presented from those who are also people of faith.

  • No they aren’t. They are just hateful nosy bodies who want control over others. You have no regard for people, the born. So it’s obvious your concerns for the unborn are phony garbage. It’s just egomaniacal prattling.

  • Sorry. You keep providing evidence that your maturity is not at the level to engage in adult conversation. Buh-bye, Markie!

  • You really have no conception, do you? If saving a life calls for telling someone they cannot murder, guilty – especially a baby.

  • Nope. You keep providing evidence of serious immaturity and are unable to rise above name calling and pathetic, ageist attempts at intimidation and belittling. Buh-bye!

  • Let’s take an educated guess: “49” refers to the year of your birth.

    That makes you 70ish, with a history of bra-burning in the ’60s and ’70s, reading all the feminist authors right into the ’80s, and exhibiting the same self-absorbed “me! me! me!” that, say, the Clintons do.

    So what we get is name-calling and the characterization of actual facts connected together with logical argument designed to establish one or more propositions “intimidation”.

    What we do NOT get are facts, logical connections of those facts into actual arguments, or anything else substantive.

    Play with the grandchildren.

  • Hmmm… you keep providing evidence that you don’t have the maturity to have an adult conversation like this. All you can do is make some pathetic ageists attempts to try and intimidate and belittle. Poor baby! Buh-bye Markie!

  • “(A)n adult conversation like this” like what?

    “Markie!”?

    “Poor baby!”?

    The discussion has to do with human life.

    Abortion involves ending a human life.

    This is serious stuff.

    Take it seriously and cut the posing.

  • Nope. I am just not a self-absorbed nosybody who demands control of others. I leave that to Christian folks like yourself. People with no regard for others in general.

    Again, I can’t take your concern for the unborn as genuine when you show me such contempt for people who are born.

  • Facts?! Is that what you said, little Markie? Just as you have done with my identity, you deal in conjecture and opinion and “alternate facts”. How about turning off the laptop and go play a game with your friends? Or, take a walk. Get some fresh air. Eat an apple. Your mommy will be so pleased!

  • ” I am just not a self-absorbed nosybody who demands control of others.”

    Except, of course, for those who are not yet born.

  • And yet you are the only one here. You haven’t said much. The most outspoken anti-abortion trolls here are men. I’ve seen anti-abortion protesters in a number of US states and they are also mostly men. Those who have committed the most anti-abortion violence are mostly men.

  • No I’m not. Sandi is here as well, and she receives more vitriol than anyone even though she’s far nicer than I am.

    You don’t read much here if you think I haven’t said much here. Funny how you wander in and wag a finger once in a while and then call everyone else who are actually discussing the issues “trolls.”

    Men are more violent than women in general. And anti-abortionists in the political arena are predominantly men because politicians are predominantly men. But those of us who are actually in the trenches know who drives this at the ground level — who does the fund-raising, who staffs the crisis preganancy centers, who actually works with pregnant women in need, and who cares the most. Even the pollsters who are masters at manipulating public opinion and would love to paint the pro-life movement as “patriarchal” or somesuch can not deny that women are more likely to oppose abortion than men are.

    Many men in the pro-life movement are heavily influenced in it by the women in their lives. Most men, including even many technically pro-life men (in my own personal experience — before anyone complains that I am dissing pro-life men in general), really consider it a women’s issue and would rather give their attention to something else.

  • You don’t know what “mental Health” is about? Doesn’t surprise me. Of course “family situations” is vague because every family situation is different and deserves to be treated as such.

    You are the only one with mindless slogans. Time to grow up Mark!

    Compassion is about being able to understand another’s position, which you are obviously unable to do. That means respecting another person’s privacy–as in it is none of my business what a woman’s reasons are for choosing to go through with a pregnancy or terminate it. She owes me no explanations nor any one else an explanation.

  • “”Grow up.” is Susan Humphreys’ line.” It’s Psico[p]’s too.

    What is is with feminist women and the continuous “poor baby” and “maturity” sneering? They sound like secularized versions of the SNL Church Lady, blue hair and all.

  • I don’t know what YOU think “mental health is about” and why YOU think it’s relevant.

    In New York state, for purpose of abortion, it simply means the pregnant woman would be displeased to have the baby.

    You’re being purposely vague.

    “Time to grow up Mark!”

    Time to knock that off and actually make your argument.

    “Compassion is about being able to understand another’s position, which you are obviously unable to do.”

    I am having a bit of trouble understanding YOUR position.

    The standard definition of compassion is

    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/compassion

    Compassion -noun – mass noun

    Sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.

    So, in this context, one might take a look at the human lives at stake, the mother’s who for some reason does not wish to be pregnant, the unborn life, which has done nothing to anyone and certainly does not deserve what happens in an abortion, and feel concern for the misfortunes which may befall both or either.

    You seem to be using it in a special sense of having concern for the mother alone.

    That’s ideology, not compassion.

    “She owes me no explanations nor any one else an explanation.” is a slogan and/or an opinion.

    If you can support within the context of this framework of human life, please have at it.

  • When you get the same exact line from three individuals with the same perspective, it sort of makes you wonder.

    These are not just feminist women. These are superannuated Baby Boomer women, steeped in Betty Friedan (now THERE was a nasty piece of work), Gloria Steinem, the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws, and – depending on their denominational ties – things along the lines of Roman Catholic Women Priests.

    They don’t have a position, they belong to a cult.

    They don’t construct and present arguments, they wave slogans.

    And whatever they do they never, ever, ever get any better.

  • I’m sorry that you misunderstood that my use of “here” was contextual not general. By “here” I was referring to this thread of comments responding to this particular article, not RNS in general.

    Some folks here think that you are actually a guy!

    Sandi in Hell showed up hours after I made my comment. At the time of my comment you were the only woman who had commented here and you had made only a few. And you the male anti-abortionists were swamping the forum.

    Folks who repeat the same lies again and again are trolls in my book. YMMV.

    Ciao

  • It isn’t an objection. It is a minor correction to a mistake that he makes often in his comments.
    YMMV
    C’est la vie.

  • Not in KC. But since everybody has gone totally Freak-Show Crazy over in NYC, maybe babies in that part of the world are called “fetuses.”

  • Okay, you’re not playing along, I get that. But you must still be able to formulate a position or opinion. So, in light of that, here’s an alternative question for you:

    Have you heard the phrase “Aborted Women”? What does that phrase mean to you?

  • It’s gonna take a lot more to prove to me that you are worthy of my time than that rancid old piece of bait. Maybe next year. Or, whenever you grow up.

  • Seriously, Markie? Don’t make me laugh! It’s gonna take a lot more to prove to me that you have matured enough that that rancid old piece of bait. Grow up!

  • It’s put up or shut up time.

    A fetus is a human life.Explain your slogans in that context or move along.

  • Oh, I don’t have to prove anything at all.

    You’re the one who is writing checks with her mouth she can’t cash with facts and a logical argument.

    “(P)rove to me that you are worthy of my time” is a classic dodge.

  • I was linking to them as a joke.

    But they weren’t minding their own business, they were baited by the 4 Black Israelites and as teenaged boys will be boys, (not fully formed mental capacities) they took the bait.

  • News Flash: You don’t have that kind of power! You don’t get to tell me what to debate, or where to go. I’m staying right here. I’m just not going to engage with an insecure, immature llittle boy who tries to bait, intimidate and humiliate. Not. Gonna. Happen. Buh-bye!

  • No, they actually didn’t.

    They continued to stand there waiting for their bus.

    They asked permission from their chaperones to do school chants, which permission was granted, and they proceeded to do that.

    They did NOT approach the Black Israelites.

    They did NOT address the Black Israelites.

    They just stood there waiting for their bus and when it finally arrived, they departed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nno6SAYDfx8

  • You won’t be taken seriously again on the topic of abortion.

    Btw, is “Buh-bye” a phonetic spelling of what you actually say and do you have some sort of speech impediment?

  • Is “Buh-bye” a phonetic spelling of what you actually say and do you have some sort of speech impediment?

    Even you realize you’ll never be taken seriously on abortion after this performance.

  • So, let’s talk for a minute about YOUR performance, Markie.

    You think I’m a 70-something year old woman because of the 49 in my name. You probably think my name is Liza. Not that that might be one of my favorite performers or that 4/9 might be an important date for me, or my home street number or the street number of my childhood home. But, you’ve got me all figured out, don’t you? It’s actu pretty hilarious.

    And then there’s the fact that you have never, not once, responded to anything I’ve said with any facts. Just your opinions. Or right-wing talking points and alternative facts.

    No, instead, you just try to bait and intimidate, harass and demean.

    You are behaving like that little boy in the third grade who sits behind the girl with the pig tails and the only way he knows how to communicate is to pull her pigtails and make faces.

    You don’t even know that Buh-bye is what some people say to little kids as a cute way to say goodbye. Instead you try to turn your ignorance into some sort of insult about my ability to speak. What a guy! Sounds like you’ve been taking lessons from the current occupant of the Oval Office.

    You’ve given quite a performance!

    So I’m done with you. You won’t get another response from me. So, let us all see Little Markie’s last, best shot. I’ve wasted enough of my time with you. We all have.

    One last thing: Grow up.

  • Five medical conditions are associated with 74% of maternal deaths in the US. Embolisms, hemorrhaging, cardiomyopathy, per-eclampsia and infection. Given that some insurance companies consider pregnancy as a per-existing condition, there are issues with access to pre-natal care and medical treatment. While cocaine use is a statistically significant contributor, an even greater one is lack of prenatal care. California changed medical protocols/practices to reduce maternal deaths.

    Post-natal care is typically one visit 6 weeks after delivery, leaving a vacuum for identifying and treating post-partum depression and the risk of suicide.

    To blame maternal death increases on drug use is over-simplifying an issue that impacts infants and mothers. To attribute this as being more of an an inner city problem overlooks the relationship between income and drug use.

  • Of course I do not play along in a fixed game. It forces you to go off script and come up with your own ideas. 🙂

  • The sins of fetus worshipers are far more damaging. Thanks to their gullibility and immoral desire to turn women into chattel property, they have consistently voted for people who attack the livelihood and economic interests of everyone who works for a living.

    In their zeal to be self-righteous egomaniacal fools they have harmed the nation as a whole and support immorality and sin in the most obvious ways.

  • Under the current law (Obamacare), insurance companies cannot deny access to treatment for pre-existing conditions.

    As to your 74%, you need to support that with one or more citations.

    I have mine ready.

  • Two hundred and fifty-five words to say:

    – Nyah, nyah, nyah!

    – I can’t defend my positions on abortion.

    What a mouth you have on you!

  • WANTED: PRO-ABORTION SCRIPTURES (worth considering “at the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC), the largest national interfaith, abortion rights organization, [AFTER] we approach the highly personal reproductive decision-making process guided first and foremost by compassion.”)

    Like this one, “represent[ing] … the Protestant groups … in the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice”, from Cheryl B. Anderson, “Christians and Reproductive Justice: Hearing New Voices”, Ecclesio: The current scene through a Gospel lens, September 25, 2012:

    “In Numbers 5:11-31, a husband who suspects his wife has committed adultery can take her to the priests. They will make her take a potion that, if she is guilty, will make ‘her womb discharge’ and her ‘uterus drop’ (5:21-22). If she is not guilty, ‘then she shall be immune and be able to conceive children’ (5:28). The significance of Numbers 5 … is that the passage does not have qualms about inducing an abortion if the woman were pregnant. The husband’s fear, it would seem, is that his wife has become pregnant during suspected encounters with another man and this process would allay those fears. Indeed, after the visit with the priest, the husband is in a ‘win-win position.’ Any pregnancy from the other man would be terminated if she were pregnant (or so he would believe), and, if she were not pregnant, she would be able to conceive and bear his children in the future. Such a procedure is entirely in keeping with biblical family laws that, on the whole, were geared to making sure that an Israelite head of household could be sure that he was the father of his wife’s children.”

  • One assumes that what you mean by “they have consistently voted for people who attack the livelihood and economic interests of everyone who works for a living” is the interest of Planned Parenthood, its abortions clinics, and those who work in them.

  • Gee, that hardly leaves any time for making stupid remarks and canned lines to support self-absorbed birth canal worshipers, eh?

  • Christianity is the force that brought women to a higher status. Women who become like bad men are not serving the cause.

  • Just to clarify something about what “reverend” connotes:

    The word “revere” comes from the Old French “révérer” or Latin “revereri”.

    A verb, it means “feel deep respect or admiration for”.

    It also included in its original languages “fear” in the sense of “stand in awe of”, the same thing which “fear of god” signifies.

    “Reverend”’s origins are in the adjectival form of “revere”, which is “revered”, of which “reverend” is one form.

    As English developed, “revered” continued to be used for senior members of a family or community, and other worthies of longstanding, while “reverend” became the adjective for holy offices.

    In that usage they really don’t pertain to the person but the office.

  • What is the cause you think they should be serving? Christianity in its earliest days was fairer to some women. BUT it has long been an abuser of women, working to keep them in their place–in the home and pregnant!

  • Do they? I think we can agree that an abortion kills a fetus. And that the differences between a newborn child and a fetus in the third trimester are not that great.

    Where do you draw the line at granting the value of a human life to the human in the womb and the human outside of it?

  • …Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen. None of us are what we should be, but I am sure the “white-robed army of martyrs” will testify on our behalf.

  • Interesting to see Sarah Weddington there, in the photograph. Norma McCorvey of Roe died in 2017, Catholic and STAUNCHLY PRO-LIFE.

  • You are trying to discuss a point based on a fictional premise. Late term abortions are invariably performed where live birth is simply not possible and mothers had intended to keep the pregnancy. It represents an intrusion on medical decisions.

    Late term abortion bans are not about viability. It is about pushing limits as much as possible for as wide an abortion ban as legally possible. They are invariably in bad faith.

  • If that is true, then it should be no issue to ban late term abortion so long as there are exceptions for the life of the mother.

  • I find your stupidity quite offensive, honey.

    Abortion is reproductive health care.

    There are over 100,000 ectopic pregnancies a year in this country, and an abortion saves the woman from hemorrhaging to death from ruptured fallopian tubes. Abortion saves the lives of women suffering from placental abruption, pulmonary hypertension,

    preeclampsia, and other pregnancy complications.

    Abortion is basic reproductive health care for women, and is considered so and supported by our major medical health organizations such as the American Medical Association, American Academy of Family Physicians members), American Medical Women’s Association, Physicians for Reproductive Health, and American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists.

    “Early pregnancy loss is important for our species. As many as 70% of human conceptions may never develop, and a third of recognized pregnancies terminate spontaneously through miscarriage…From a biological perspective, induced abortion is an extension of miscarriage—a continued winnowing designed to ensure that children are well born….healthy, wanted, and loved.” ― David A. Grimes, M.D., “Every Third Woman In America: How Legal Abortion Transformed Our Nation”

  • Re: “considered a double homicide”: In regards to the “murder” of a pregnant woman and her fetus, individual states, who have managed to pass fetal personhood laws, have had awkward caveats that do not include abortion, which is federally protected. It is up to the discretion of an individual prosecutor to bring double homicide charges in the cases of murdered pregnant women.

    Fetal personhood laws are a direct attack on Roe v Wade, but they have failed to overturn federal law to protect women’s rights to medical privacy. Here in Colorado, sensible people have managed to beat back the religious political wingnuts, who year after year, introduce a fetal personhood bill.

  • Re: “prenatal life as property”:Yes, indeed, dear. Embryos are property. There seems to be a realization among wombsniffers that embryos currently housed in IVF clinics are someone’s legal property.

    Massive cognitive dissonance comes into play when wombsniffers howl that the very same embryo in the IVF clinic, that’s now been transferred into the woman (owner’s) body is somehow, magically, no longer her property.

    Bizarre and irrational of wombsniffers; but there you go.

  • Late-term abortion of an inviable fetus, or for the health and life of the pregnant woman, is determined by the physician in consultation with the pregnant woman–not between know-nothing strangers on the Internet.

  • Reproductive biology clearly states that most embryos are never born. FYI, upwards of 80% of embryos fail to implant in a uterine wall within 6 to 12 days after fertilization and are expelled from sexually active women. Not just one unfertilized egg a month is flushed from sexually active women. So many people have this simplistic notion of a woman’s reproductive system. Gynecologists estimate that half of those embryos that do not imbed could have been viable fetuses had they burrowed their way into the uterine lining. Furthermore, the CDC, IVF clinics, and organizations such as the March of Dimes estimate that anywhere from 25 to 35 to 50% of pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion. Sexually active women are often unaware they have conceived and aborted, and don’t think it unusual if there is a heavy period or clumping.

    Abortion is a natural bodily process in a woman’s reproductive system. Since implanted as well as un-implanted perfectly viable embryos are shed from sexually active women, what difference does it make if a woman chooses to
    un-implant her own embryo? NONE.

  • Re: “They would rather kill them.” You appear to be under the delusion that only Democrats obtain abortions. Conservative women and liberal women obtain abortions. Married women and religious women obtain abortions–with the catholics in the lead! The greatest majority of women who abort, already have one or more children at home to feed, and they are quite clearly stating that they do want another child, or cannot afford another child when they seek an abortion.

  • Re: “issues all deal with human life”: Ova and sperm are “human life”–unique human life. So protect those gametes! No masturbation for you!

  • Sweetie, “infants” are not contained within a woman–embryos and feti occupy the uterus.

    Re: Auchwitz: Several Jewish organizations have weighed in on how they are affronted by the trivialization of the Holocaust by comparing it to personal political agendas.

    “Holocaust trivialization also manifests itself partly in the growing use of comparisons of disparate events to elements bearing no resemblance to the Holocaust…among the better-known ideological or political causes of the trivializers are, for instance, environmentalism, animal rights or PRO-LIFE ACTIVISM…”

    http://jcpa.org/article/holocaust-trivialization/

    The Nazi comparison is quite disingenuous. Women are not systematically aborting fetuses in an attempt to purify a racial gene pool.

  • Re: “The medical facts are that in the womb that is a human being.”:No, dear. There is no scientific consensus as to ‘when’ a fertilized egg is a “human being”.

    Wannabe womb regulators such as yourself have the notion that the nanosecond sperm penetrates egg that POOF! there’s a “human being”. Most undereducated and/or fundie religious folk hold to that notion, even though upwards of 80% of embryos fail to thrive and are simply shed from sexually active women. Others, biologists/embryologists, recognize that within 12 days that the fertilized egg may split to generate one or more embryos, so they view gastrulation as the start of new one or more “human being(s)”. Some scientists view viability of the fetus as the start of a new “human being”, especially at the development of EEG waves at around 25-26 weeks, or at the development of thalamocortex connections at around 29-30 weeks that are required for higher brain functions. Others take the start of a new “human being” as being at birth, with the intake of breath to activate the lungs, changes in the circulatory system and heart, and accompanying changes in other organs.
    ———————–

    “What I’m concerned with is how you develop. I know that you all think about it perpetually that you come from one single cell of a fertilized egg. I don’t want to get involved in religion but that is not a human being. I’ve spoken to these eggs many times and they make it quite clear … they are not a human being.”–Dr. Lewis Wolpert, world renowned developmental and evolutionary biologist, author of “Principles of Development” and “Triumph of the Embryo”

    “I’m also confident that the freshly fertilized zygote is not [a] human [being], either. There’s more to being [a] human [being] than bearing a cell with the right collection of genes.”–Dr. Paul Myers, developmental biologist

  • As Spuddie has stated, we who are pro-choice do not pretend to know the health or circumstances of total strangers. Their medical decisions have nothing to do with us…or with you nosy parkers.

  • Honey, “self-absorbed” are those of you who think you have any business interfering with a pregnant woman’s medical decision.

  • RE: “birth canal worship”: My dear, you and others appear to suffer from a malady known as Fetal idolatry:

    Elevating human embryos and fetuses to a revered, exalted, even sacred status is fetal idolatry, according to Rev. John Swomley, Emeritus Professor of Social Ethics, St. Paul School of Theology.

    “Opponents of abortion in America have attributed to fetal life a sacredness that is actually idolatry….Fetal idolatry denies a woman’s right to control her body, her life, her destiny, all of which must be sacrificed to an embryo or fetus once she is pregnant… Fetal idolatry is bolstered by two other idolatries. One is patriarchy and the second, akin to it, is religious hierarchy. Both are evident in the subordination of women to men, who have historically made political, economic and religious decisions for women… Fetal idolatry or the denial of reproductive freedom to women is the major battleground issue for both patriarchal and clerical control of women….It is the toleration and even practice of violence by right-to-lifers that is one aspect of idolatry. Fetal life is such a ‘sacred’ value that existing persons who differ are threatened and killed.”–Rev. Dr. John M. Swomley, Human Quest

    “The argument that a fertilized egg or embryo is somehow a prepackaged human destined to be born contradicts all that scientists have learned. Knowledge of human embryology is why biologists use words like “zygote,” “blastula,” “embryo” and “fetus”, not “baby.” Possibly the public’s attitude toward abortions would have been more mature and reasonable if students had learned some basic human embryology in school. But instead, in dozens of states students are only taught that “abortions murder babies” and legislators continue to pass laws based on medieval theologies and pseudoscience that in effect, treat women as obligatory breeding machines. Who is asking the question: when will women, themselves, achieve full personhood?”–Charles L. Rulon, Emeritus, Life & Health Sciences

  • RE: “Except, of course, for those who are not yet born.”:Sweetie, Spuddie has no control over the uterine contents of total strangers–he keeps repeating this–yet you fail to comprehend. A pregnant woman is the only one in control of her uterine contents–not tyou, not anyone else. A pregnant woman makes her medical decisions in consultation with a doctor, not you, not wombsniffing strangers. YOU, my dear, and the other wombsniffers are the ones who are demanding the control of a pregnant woman’s medical decision.

  • Then let it be so determined. But the voting public and the state have a say in any abortion restrictions aside from that exception.

  • Those who support safe legal abortion are hundreds of thousands of our medical personnel in our major mainstream health organizations.

    American Medical Association: “[We] oppose legislative interference with the practice of medicine and a woman’s relationship with her doctor… Access to safe and legal abortion is an important aspect of women’s health care. Abortion is one of the safest medical procedures performed in the United States.”
    ———————————-
    “”The American Medical Women’s Association [AMWA] will oppose efforts to overturn or weaken Roe v. Wade, either directly or indirectly, as in the case of legislation which burdens access to the abortion procedure. AMWA considers all such laws and court rulings to interfere with the doctor-patient relationship, and thus to violate medical autonomy and pose threats to the individual as well as the public health.”
    ———————————
    “Safe, legal abortion is a necessary component of women’s health care. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists supports the availability of high-quality reproductive health services for all women and is committed to
    improving access to abortion….Induced abortion is an essential component of women’s health care. Like all medical matters, decisions regarding abortion should be made by patients in consultation with their health care providers and
    without undue interference by outside parties. Like all patients, women obtaining abortion are entitled to privacy, dignity, respect, and support.”
    ———————————
    Association of Reproductive Health Care Professionals: “Abortion care is a critical component of comprehensive reproductive health care, and ARHP supports a woman’s right to choose to have an abortion. The decision to continue or terminate a pregnancy belongs to the pregnant woman. ARHP opposes any judicial, legislative, or administrative attempt at the local, state, or federal levels to ban any abortion procedure or medical procedure to terminate a pregnancy.”
    —————————-
    Academy of Family Physicians:

    “RESOLVED, That the American Academy of Family Physicians support chapter efforts that oppose legislation that imposes on abortion providers unnecessary requirements that infringe on the practice of evidence-based medicine, and be it further

    RESOLVED, That the American Academy of Family Physicians oppose national legislation that imposes unnecessary requirements on abortion providers, reducing doctors’ ability to provide evidence-based and patient-centered care…”
    ——————————
    Oh, look–the major International health organizations also support abortion as reproductive health care for women.

    “…[World Health Organization] WHO, with support from an international consensus and prompted by human rights obligations, has responded to a major neglected public health need of women…until abortion is decriminalized, the
    tragedy of unsafe abortion will continue to haunt us and to threaten the life, health and rights of women. Furthermore, research aimed at developing simpler, improved methods for performing induced abortion has the potential to save the lives of millions of women globally.”
    —————————–
    The WMA (World Medical Association) recognizes the benefits for women who are able to control their fertility…The ability to do so by choice and not chance is a principal component of women’s physical and mental health and social well being.”

  • Re: “hell”: Hell is a made-up place by power-hungry men to control the superstitious and fearful.

  • Re: “allowing the child to be killed just seconds before it leaves the birth cana”: That is a crock of sh*t and fear mongering, dear..

    New York Law:

    “What’s True

    The New York state legislature passed a law allowing abortions after 24 weeks if the mother’s health is at risk or there is an absence of fetal viability.

    What’s False

    THE LAW DOES NOT ALLOW FOR UNRESTRICTED ABORTION UP THROUGH THE NORMAL TERM OF PREGNANCY.”

    “In anticipation of that possibility [the overturning of Roe vs Wade], in January 2019 the state of New York enacted the Reproductive
    Health Act (RHA) to bring state laws in line with current federal law guaranteeing abortion rights, and to preserve access to abortion services should Roe v. Wade be overturned. In a nutshell, the RHA does three things:

    First, it strips abortion from the state’s criminal code and places it entirely within the realm of public health law. Second, it expands
    who can perform the procedure from beyond just physicians to any licensed, certified or authorized health care practitioner for whom abortion is within their scope of practice.

    Finally, it legalizes abortion after 24 weeks in cases where it would protect a woman’s health or where a fetus is not viable. State law
    previously only allowed abortions after 24 weeks if the woman’s life was in jeopardy.”–Snopes

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/new-york-abortions-birth/

  • You’re quite the fear-mongering wombsniffer, Markie:

    No, the bill does NOT legalize abortion up to birth. New York’s new Reproductive Health Act (RHA) explained:

    1. The RHA was passed by our Senate and signed by Governor Cuomo. It stands. Period.

    2. The purpose of the RHA is to put into our state law protections for the constitutional right to terminate a pregnancy
    regardless of what happens to Roe v Wade.

    3. <bElective abortion doesn’t exist after twenty four weeks, and it is exceedingly rare to non-existent after twenty weeks. Elective abortion is quite rare after twelve weeks. Elective abortion is rare after ten weeks.

    4. There is no such thing as full term abortion or abortion the day before delivery. Viable fetuses are delivered. This bill does not allow people to change their minds in their eighth month. More importantly, the idea that someone would continue a pregnancy that long and then have an abortion for fun is offensive and insulting and far from “pro life.” The provision in the bill makes sure that pregnant people cannot be forced to carry dead fetuses in the last trimester. The latter can kill a person and is immoral. Yes, immoral.

    5. Clinics do not perform late term abortions. They are a more complicated procedure and they are performed by four doctors in the US. They cost tens of thousands of dollars.

    6. The idea that making access to Late Term Abortion will cause more of them to take place is not supported by any evidence. Nor is the idea that more accessible abortion leads to more abortions supported by evidence. In countries like Canada with little to no restriction on abortion, there is no increase in LTAs or first trimester or second trimester abortion. Quite the contrary, in fact. And since abortion became legal in the US, the numberof abortions per year has decreased.

    7. Easy access to abortion causes abortions to be obtained earlier and helps avoid elective second trimester abortion.

    8. New York is a very liberal state. We support this law.

    9. If you object to abortion, don’t have one.

    It is between a pregnant woman and her doctor to determine the state of her health–not strangers. Who do you think is more qualified to make the determination that a fetus is not viable, or if a pregnant woman’s health or life is at risk? You? Snort.

  • Snort. Who cares what celibate males in long funny dresses and hats have to say about women’s reproductive health care? Oh, yeah. Their brain-washed minions.

  • You are irrelevant in the medical decisions of total strangers, dear. The only body you get to control is your own.

  • Re: “hideous deed”L You appear to worship the invisible middle-east megalomaniac deity that slaughtered every pregnant woman and child in the tall tale of Noah’s Flood. That’s quite the bloodthirsty deity you grovel to, honey.

  • Women are aborting children out of convenience.
    Very sad.
    I would rather worship a fetus then worship death as you do – sweetie.

  • Re: “voting public ad the state:” Red states overloaded with bible-humping ignorant politicians have more restrictions on a woman’s reproductive health care, than progressive blue states, who are more comfortable leaving medical decisions between the pregnant woman and attending physician–you know–the actual qualified people.

    The voting public has continually supported Roe vs Wade, but fundie bible humpers can’t stand for that!
    ——————–

    PerryUndem Research Communication poll: Key findings include:

    • Large majorities of voters say they want the experience of abortion to be safe, legal, respectful, supportive, affordable, accessible, and without shame.

    • Since January of 2010, states across the country have passed 318 laws restricting access to abortion.1 Slightly more than half of voters (55 percent) are unaware of this recent trend. Once informed, a majority says these laws are going in the wrong direction. Voters are less likely to vote to re-elect an official who favors these restrictions.

    • A majority of voters support proposals for laws that help ensure safe and affordable access to abortion care that is driven by standard medical practices and medically proven data.

    https://www.nirhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Memo-NIRH-Poll_Final_3.pdf

  • Good news, Sharon. The Son of God became a man to destroy sin and death that came into the world because of a woman and a man. Jesus rose from the dead, so that we can also conquer in his name. There will be L through eternity, in the land flowing with milk and real honey (Where honey is used poetically, and not twisted, as your unnamed deity would like).

  • You are not irrelevant. You are special, and the “little stranger,” in the womb is not to be dismissed because he/she is weak and helpless. You would not care to see dogs abused, I think. For deep down, your soul is ” like a deer that longs for running streams…”

  • Re: “convenience:” Sweetie, you demonstrate that the anti-choice anti-abortion harassment has never been about
    the sonorous “unborn”, no matter what you shriek. This is, and always has been, about controlling women and their sexuality. Look how many times wombsniffers like you use stupid catch words like “convenience”, as though gestation is the equivalent of missing a bus.

    You do not know a single, solitary woman’s circumstances or health. You do not know what is, or is not inconvenient or convenient for a total stranger. The store being out of an item you want is inconvenient. Inconvenience is what happens when you are stuck in line behind the new cashier in training at the grocery store. Inconvenience is needing to go to the bathroom before giving a speech. Going through 40 weeks of pregnancy with all of its health risks, including death, and its toll on every organ in a woman’s body can hardly be considered just an “inconvenience”.

    The line is drawn: if it’s not your pregnancy, it’s none of your business.

  • The murder of innocents is everyone’s business. It’s too bad women chose not to be mothers because they prefer to be men.

  • Women in the Catholic Church have been all over the world, as teachers, missionaries, health care providers, and heads of large far-reaching organizations. The Mother of God, herself, advised the early Church, and continues now after her Assumption into Heaven to mentor the Church. What a place that final Heavenly Home will be! Jesus has prepared a place for you there, and for me. It is very unlike what you think, for he suffered and died to make sure we could get there.

  • Cue the violins!

    Your life and experiences are not those of others, honey, Women don’t have to pop out babies to suit your ideology.

  • Virginia’s bill. The governor (is he still, governor, or has he resigned?), kind of let the cat out of the bag, there, with his comments.

  • Re: “RHA allows abortion up to the point of birth.”: No it doesn’t, you stupid bible-humping old fart. No one is aborting healthy fetuses up until birth. Get a grip, you crazy loon.

    “What’s True:

    The New York state legislature passed a law allowing abortions after 24 weeks if the mother’s health is at risk or there is an absence of fetal viability.

    What’s False:

    THE LAW DOES NOT ALLOW FOR UNRESTRICTED ABORTION UP THROUGH THE NORMAL TERM OF PREGNANCY.”

    “In anticipation of that possibility [the overturning of Roe vs Wade], in January 2019 the state of New York enacted the Reproductive Health Act (RHA) to bring state laws in line with current federal law guaranteeing abortion rights, and to preserve access to abortion services should Roe v. Wade be overturned. In a nutshell, the RHA does three things:

    First, it strips abortion from the state’s criminal code and places it entirely within the realm of public health law. Second, it expands who can perform the procedure from beyond just physicians to any licensed, certified or authorized health care practitioner [e.g. physcian’s assistants, nurse practicitioners] for whom abortion is within their scope of practice.

    Finally, it legalizes abortion after 24 weeks in cases where it would protect a woman’s health or where a fetus is not viable. State law previously only allowed abortions after 24 weeks if the woman’s life was in jeopardy.”–Snopes

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/new-york-abortions-birth/

  • Silly old fart, that term “innocent” is a crock. “An embryo or fetus is “innocent” the way a sea anemone is Innocent of sapience.”

    Sweetie, the majority of women who obtain abortions are already “mothers”. They are quite clearly stating that they do not want another child, or cannot afford another child when they obtain an abortion.

    You sure have a lot of a$$hat notions, old bible humper.

  • Sweetie, I’m a scientist. I don’t do Voo Doo, Jewish zombies, or crazya$$ bloodthirsty middle-east deities.

    Numbers 9:11-16: “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.”

    [Translation: god makes all the women miscarry (abort) and makes them infertile and dries up their breast milk so those babies that are born, will die of starvation.]

    Numbers 31:17: Moses telling the following “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every
    woman that hath known man by lying with him.”

    [Translation: here we have the big Mo’ (who is god’s hitman), to off all the infant boys, and the women who might be pregnant (abortion by death).]

    Hosea 13:16: “Samaria shall bear her guilt; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword; their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.”

    [Translation: here we have god’s wrath by having women getting their fetuses ripped out of their bodies (aborted).]

    Exodus 22:17: You should not let a sorceress live.

    [Translation: an educated woman with self esteem.]

    Deuteronomy 22:20-21: Cut to the chase—kill women who are not virgins.

  • You’re nuts, honey. You babble nonsense. Take your meds.

    If YOU think abortion is murder and that a woman shouldn’t have non
    procreative sex–If YOU believe you know what an invisible supernatural
    deity wants–If YOU have control issues–if You presume that complete
    strangers should change their lifestyles because YOU have a problem with
    it, then it is YOUR problem. Go see a psychologist for these delusions
    of yours to be a petty dictator over women’s lives.

  • https://www{DOT}cdcfoundation.org/sites/default/files/upload/pdf/MMRIAReport.pdf

    “The overall distribution of critical factors among pregnancy-related deaths identifies patient factors most frequently (42.6%), followed by provider (34.8%), and systems of care factors (Figure 9) (21.7%). Facility factors (.9%)are rarely identified, and community factors are absent from the Four Committee data. While patient factors are the most common, these often reflect patient factors that are dependent on providers and systems of care, which becomes evident when put together with class and descriptions, as we show below.”

    ***

    Ed. Note: percentages are from the accompanying graphic in the document.

    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-05-prenatal-trimester-majority-births.html

    “The researchers found that 77.1 percent of women who gave birth in 2016 initiated prenatal care in the first trimester of pregnancy; 4.6 and 1.6 percent, respectively, began prenatal care in the third trimester and received no care.”

    https://www{DOT}centerforhealthjournalism.org/fellowships/projects/behind-start-why-some-women-arent-receiving-early-prenatal-care

    “What I conclude is people here don’t know that they can receive care or that they’re afraid to seek it,” said Dr. Thomas Schlenker, who was in charge of Metro Health until August. “I don’t think we have been welcoming or doing the necessary outreach to pregnant women in Bexar County and that’s reflecting in the fact that almost 4,000 women showed up for delivery in 2014 who had no prenatal care at all. Zero.”

    “Certain groups of women are less likely to get early prenatal care: Poor, black, Hispanic, unmarried, lacking a high-school diploma and teens. A major factor is whether the pregnancy is unplanned.”

    https://www{DOT}ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3349286/

    “The association of cocaine use with maternal mortality and any drug/alcohol use with postneonatal mortality supports screening and identifying women using illicit drugs and alcohol during pregnancy. Increased collaboration with drug treatment programs and closer follow-up for drug-using women and their children may improve mortality outcomes.”

    ***

    Your articles demonstrate that it is not primarily inability to get healthcare, but failure to get healthcare that leads to poor outcomes. In addition abuse of drugs and alcohol has an adverse effect on the health and mortality of both mother and infant.

    These factors are well-known and have been for years. They explain the poor outcomes for inner city non-white populations and the relative ineffectiveness of interventions such as prenatal clinics in the inner cities.

    The same data demonstrates that when populations are stratified and and the low income high crime inner city populations extracted from the combined American infant and health mortality statistics, the result is comparable to the statistics in Western Europe.

  • You’re quite the loud-mouthed troll, Sharon.

    Since I had prior to this post to which I am responding fired torpedoes into the water line of most of your nonsensical slogans (e.g., “If you object to abortion, don’t have one.”), your late entrance obviates the need to respond in detail.

    In looking through your 10,459 comments, and noting the use of terms such as “bible humpers”, I see that roughly once every six months you troll through RNS spewing hatred and nonsense until everyone blocks you. And then you wait for fresh victims.

    Snort this:

    You’re blocked.

    https://help.disqus.com/commenting/user-blocking

  • You are trying to argue with the fictional premise that late term abortions are “invariably” performed where live birth is simply not possible.

    The evidence supports the conclusion that most are performed for the very reason earlier term abortions are performed: birth control.

  • Keep on believing the lie. Abortion has moved beyond saving a womans life. Now its about removing an inconvenience. So its not about health care in 99% of cases. Shouldn’t you be somewhere making sure no babies are born alive.

  • I can point to many.

    The most famous example is Savita Halappanavar in Ireland.

    She died because laws which only permit “abortion for medical reasons only” frequently put doctors in fear of prosecution lest they try to demonstrate such reasons.

    Read this
    https://jezebel.com/interview-with-a-woman-who-recently-had-an-abortion-at-1781972395

    The medical profession also agrees here
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/10/19/abortion-mother-life-walsh/1644839/

    The fact that you apparently doubt such things are done to save the life of a mother who intended to keep a pregnancy is pretty repugnant garbage.

  • You can’t put lipstick on this Bullshit. . The Torah , The Koran and The New Testament ALL SAY IN THE EYES OF GOD IT’S MURDER.

  • My belief is that the fundamental conflict over abortion is WHEN human life becomes a human person. The scientific definition of life requires five properties. Both a spermatozoon and an ovum lack the ability to duplicate: one spermatozoon cannot become two spermatozoa; one ovum cannot become two ova. But at conception, the zygote can duplicate. This is how identical twins are generated. Meanwhile, a newborn is almost always regarded as both a human life and a human person. If we can agree on when human life becomes a human person, then we can resolve much of the conflict over abortion access. My feeling is that it happens about 24 weeks gestation when the higher brain functions in the fetus first turn on and the fetus can sense its environment to some degree. See: http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_when.htm

  • And some of those women treated indigenous people terribly.

    If you want to believe that Mary “advised and continues to advise the church” and in the assumption you are free to do so. If you think you will find a home in heaven you are free to do so. If you think Jesus suffered and died to make sure we could get there you are free to do so.

    It is all a fantasy and misses the message that Jesus was trying to bring to people as expressed in what he said are the two most important commandments. Love God and Love your Neighbor! AND in what he taught in the Sermon on the Mount. And in what he said when he stopped the men from stoning an adultress-“Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.”

    Calling women who enter family planning clinics murderers is “casting stones”

  • The pharse “WHEN human life becomes a human person” point to the answer.

    The only relevant part of that is “human life:.

    The word “person” in this context is meaningless since it connotes a legal definition.

    Once blacks and Indians were not persons in the USA. Then they were.

    Once Jews were persons in Germany. Then they weren’t.

    So, your argument can be restated “once the fundamental conflict over abortion is settled, we’ll have a clear definition of person” because “human life which cannot be terminated” = “person”. They’re the same thing, and therefore it’s a circular argument.

    Simpler is “human life”, which begins at conception and ends at death.

    Then we understand that the process we’re going through is valuing human lives; which are worthy, which are not.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7241463_Human_dignity_in_the_Nazi_era_Implications_for_contemporary_bioethics

  • EXCEPT that the considered medical opinion in Ireland at the inquest was that Savita Halappanavar’s death was the result of medical misadventure, in fact incompetence, rather than failure to provide an abortion because doctors feared prosecution.

    So, no, the medical profession in Ireland where they had access to everyone involved and all the medical records did NOT agree with you.

    Interestingly I found four instances in previous discussions where this was pointed out to you, including two where the commenter provided you a url to the inquest report, and here you still shovel this misinformation into a discussion as though it were fact.

  • https://www{DOT}cdcfoundation{DOT}org – etc

    “The overall distribution of critical factors among pregnancy-related deaths identifies patient factors most frequently (42.6%), followed by provider (34.8%), and systems of care factors (Figure 9) (21.7%). Facility factors (.9%)are rarely identified, and community factors are absent from the Four Committee data. While patient factors are the most common, these often reflect patient factors that are dependent on providers and systems of care, which becomes evident when put together with class and descriptions, as we show below.”

    ***

    Ed. Note: percentages are from the accompanying graphic in the document.

    https://medicalxpress{DOT}com – etc

    “The researchers found that 77.1 percent of women who gave birth in 2016 initiated prenatal care in the first trimester of pregnancy; 4.6 and 1.6 percent, respectively, began prenatal care in the third trimester and received no care.”

    https://www{DOT}centerforhealthjournalism{DOT}org – etc

    “What I conclude is people here don’t know that they can receive care or that they’re afraid to seek it,” said Dr. Thomas Schlenker, who was in charge of Metro Health until August. “I don’t think we have been welcoming or doing the necessary outreach to pregnant women in Bexar County and that’s reflecting in the fact that almost 4,000 women showed up for delivery in 2014 who had no prenatal care at all. Zero.”

    “Certain groups of women are less likely to get early prenatal care: Poor, black, Hispanic, unmarried, lacking a high-school diploma and teens. A major factor is whether the pregnancy is unplanned.”

    https://www{DOT}ncbi{DOT}nlm{DOT}nih{DOT}gov – etc

    “The association of cocaine use with maternal mortality and any drug/alcohol use with postneonatal mortality supports screening and identifying women using illicit drugs and alcohol during pregnancy. Increased collaboration with drug treatment programs and closer follow-up for drug-using women and their children may improve mortality outcomes.”

    ***

    Your articles demonstrate that it is not primarily inability to get healthcare, but failure to get healthcare that leads to poor outcomes. In addition abuse of drugs and alcohol has an adverse effect on the health and mortality of both mother and infant.

    These factors are well-known and have been for years. They explain the poor outcomes for inner city non-white populations and the relative ineffectiveness of interventions such as prenatal clinics in the inner cities.

    The same data demonstrates that when populations are stratified and and the low income high crime inner city populations extracted from the combined American infant and health mortality statistics, the result is comparable to the statistics in Western Europe.

  • Of course a human being begins at conception:
    “Human life begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” “A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).” Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition.

    “Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploid gametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.” Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation, Cell Tissue Research.

    “Although life is a continuous process, fertilization (which, incidentally, is not a ‘moment’) is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte” (emphasis added; Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Mueller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition.

    To kill it is murder. Therefore woman who abort are committing murder.

  • Democrats have done plenty of Voter-Registration drives in the Cemetery.
    Very dependable constituency !!

  • One of the problems that adds to confusion over abortion access is that many pro-lifers use the term “human life” to refer to everything from a zygote to an embryo, fetus, newborn, child, youth and senior adult. But if we differentiated carefully between “human life” (any form of life with human DNA) and “human person” (any form of human life with human rights) then pro-lifers and pro-choicers might be able to dialog productively — that is if you can find any of them who want to dialog..

    As I stated n my OP, a spermatozoon and ovum are not forms of life because they cannot reproduce themselves. A zygote is a form of life. My skin scraping or sliced-off pimple are also forms of human life because they consist of living cells with human DNA. But they are not a person and have no human rights.

    A newborn baby, child, youth, and adult are forms of human life and are also are almost universally considered to be human persons with rights.Somewhere between conception and birth a human life becomes a human person with rights including the right to not have their life terminated.

    If a government wants to define all Jews, Agnostics, Atheists, blue-eyed persons, African Americans, homosexuals, transgender persons, women, blonds, etc. as non persons then there would be confusion. But it would be caused by the government, and is a separate matter.

  • Pro-choicers eschew the use of “human life” because doing so makes clear what we’re doing: valuing human lives and deciding which ones we’ll consider ending.

    It is the use of euphemisms on which their house of cards is built, and it is the ready access to non-euphemistic facts which are undermining that fragile construction’s foundations.

    “My skin scraping or sliced-off pimple are also forms of human life because they consist of living cells with human DNA.”

    No, they are not a human life or forms of human life.

    They are human tissue.

    Under no circumstances can they become part of the human life cycle, which begins at conception and ends at death.

  • Yorkie apparently youre not with it enough to sort out how to use a dictionary. Abortion is not murder, never has been. The article is factual. And if you dont think pregnancy impacts a womans health then youve never been pregnant.

  • JP – am wondering if P stands for pinhead. The woman is person. The fetus is not. Laws on feticide underscore this difference. If the fetus was a person – and it has NEVER been a person under law – the existing homicide laws would cover causing the death of a pregnant woman or harming her badly enough that she miscarries. They dont. ADDITIONAL and SEPARATE laws had to be written to cover situations when this happens. And every one of them excludes abortion.

  • JPinhead anyone who wants to treat women like they are nothing more than livestock are monsters. Anyone who tries to pretend a mindless collection of insensate, nonviable tissue and cells is more valuable than the woman who is pregnant is a monster. Anyone who thinks women should be forced to continue a pregnancy against her will just to keep THEM happy is a monster.

  • Both are human lives.

    That’s the science.

    If they are both human lives, they are both human and therefore humans.

    Obfuscating the science with word salads and definitions changes nothing.

  • Anyone who wants to treat prenatal human life like an insect infestation is a monster.

    The solution, of course, is not to get pregnant if childbearing is your nemesis.

    Calling a human life in its earliest stages “a mindless collection of insensate, nonviable tissue and cells” does not render it either non-human or non-life.

    You have put your finger on what the discussion is really about with the phrase “more valuable than the woman”.

    It is about grading human lives into “values” and then deciding which may be terminated and which should not be.

    We’ve seen this before and we’ve seen where it leads.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7241463_Human_dignity_in_the_Nazi_era_Implications_for_contemporary_bioethics

  • ilr – am wondering if “i” stands for “ignorant”.

    The word “person” in and of itself is meaningless. It is a legal definition. Corporations are legally persons. Blacks were not persons in the US, and then became persons.

    Jews were persons in Germany, and then were not persons.

    The relevant subject matter is “human life”.

  • ” Abortion is not murder, never has been.”

    It has usually gone by the name “fetal homicide”.

    The article is propaganda by a clergy of a small and less than mainline sect.

  • cdcfoundation citation

    “The overall distribution of critical factors among pregnancy-related deaths identifies patient factors most frequently (42.6%), followed by provider (34.8%), and systems of care factors (Figure 9) (21.7%). Facility factors (.9%)are rarely identified, and community factors are absent from the Four Committee data. While patient factors are the most common, these often reflect patient factors that are dependent on providers and systems of care, which becomes evident when put together with class and descriptions, as we show below.”

    ***

    Ed. Note: percentages are from the accompanying graphic in the document.

    medicalxpress citation

    “The researchers found that 77.1 percent of women who gave birth in 2016 initiated prenatal care in the first trimester of pregnancy; 4.6 and 1.6 percent, respectively, began prenatal care in the third trimester and received no care.”

    centerforhealthjournalism citation

    “What I conclude is people here don’t know that they can receive care or that they’re afraid to seek it,” said Dr. Thomas Schlenker, who was in charge of Metro Health until August. “I don’t think we have been welcoming or doing the necessary outreach to pregnant women in Bexar County and that’s reflecting in the fact that almost 4,000 women showed up for delivery in 2014 who had no prenatal care at all. Zero.”

    “Certain groups of women are less likely to get early prenatal care: Poor, black, Hispanic, unmarried, lacking a high-school diploma and teens. A major factor is whether the pregnancy is unplanned.”

    nih citation

    “The association of cocaine use with maternal mortality and any drug/alcohol use with postneonatal mortality supports screening and identifying women using illicit drugs and alcohol during pregnancy. Increased collaboration with drug treatment programs and closer follow-up for drug-using women and their children may improve mortality outcomes.”

    ***

    Your articles demonstrate that it is not primarily inability to get healthcare, but failure to get healthcare that leads to poor outcomes. In addition abuse of drugs and alcohol has an adverse effect on the health and mortality of both mother and infant.

    These factors are well-known and have been for years. They explain the poor outcomes for inner city non-white populations and the relative ineffectiveness of interventions such as prenatal clinics in the inner cities.

    The same data demonstrates that when populations are stratified and and the low income high crime inner city populations extracted from the combined American infant and health mortality statistics, the result is comparable to the statistics in Western Europe.

  • What changes nothing is your argument that a mindless insensate nonviable oblivious collection of tissue and cells is somehow no different from the thinking, feeling reasoning woman who is pregnant simply because both are genetically human and are living tissue and cells, simply because thats how you see it, and that’s how you choose to try to belittle, trivialize and denigrate the woman who is pregnant. She has the right to end her pregnancy. Pretending this law is some how going to results in women having late term abortions on a whim is more attempt to belittle women and trivialize pregnancy. You also ignore the fact that this law specifically addresses situations where the fetus either has a profound congenital defect or a genetic anomaly. You arent the one dealing with the pregnancy, you arent the one risking your health or life, you arent the one facing the prospect of a profoundly disabled child. Get over the delusion you should be the one making the decisions.

  • I couldn’t be more dismayed and disgusted at this charlatan posing as a person of faith. To say of God, “who created each person in the divine image, entrusting each with the right and capacity to discern our personal courses of action” and then attempt to apply that to the business of butchering, live dismembering, and vacuuming of unborn children is about the worst evil I’ve ever seen attempted to be rationalized in my lifetime. It’s truly well beyond disgusting. May God have mercy on your corrupted soul, Jackson, because you surely have no “compassion” directed towards the most innocent and vulnerable of all humanity, our unborn children, the least of these.. You should be leading the fight to provide them with due process and speak for them when no one else will. Instead you side with the darkness. May God help you on Judgment Day. You are evil.

  • Speaking of mindless insensate nonviable and oblivious, all human life is a collection of tissue and cells, even if you try to belittle, trivialize and denigrate some of those lives as not worthy of your consideration.

    The number of abortions that involve a fetus with either a profound congenital defect or a serious (e.g., not Down’s Syndrome) genetic anomaly are minuscule.

    Back in your salad days pre-DNA, pre-sonogram, and pre-internet you and your friends could get away with word salads and slogans in lieu of facts and actual moral considerations.

    Those days are long past.

    Young Americans believe that abortion ends a life because they can see.

    They no longer buy “mindless insensate nonviable and oblivious” when they’ve seen the products of abortion, the sonograms, and so on.

    Now, if you want to try salvage this nonsense with euphemisms you may want to consider a different tact.

    You can’t get away anymore with calling the unborn odd names to obfuscate.

    I’d try renaming “abortion” something else.

    Try “ice cream”. Nobody hates ice cream.

    And for more ideas check this out:

    https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/

    I’d zero in on the propaganda on the elimination of the unfit to begin with.

  • You wrote: “. . . the business of butchering, live dismembering, and vacuuming of unborn children is about the worst evil I’ve ever seen attempted to be rationalized in my lifetime. It’s truly well beyond disgusting.”

    And yet, I’m sure you worship, praise, and glorify a God who was, by far, the most prolific abortionist throughout all of human history until, no thanks to God, humans finally developed modern medical science which reduced the number of miscarriages and deaths of children.

  • Many women have high blood pressure during pregnancy. I’ve never heard that abortion solves HBP. The first article proved nothing .

  • So youre admitting you never took a biology class, and know nothing about fetal development or abortion as a whole. Its nice for you to make obvious how poorly infoprmed and ignorant you are. You also arent quite smart enough to comprehend that a very small fraction of a percent of abortions take place late in gestation, and a very small fraction of a percent of abortions are performed for profound congenital defects. Those are the same percent we are talking about here. The vast majority of abortions take place before something like that can be detected. The rest of your little temper tantrum is just that – a childish temper tantrum. Abortion ends an unwanted pregnancy because a woman does not want to be pregnant and what is removed in a typical abortion is mindless, it is insensate, it is oblivious, and it is not viable. That is science, that is biology, that is fact. Your sniveling and foot stomping will not change that one iota. And if YOU arent the one pregnant then YOU have no say in deciding if the pregnancy continues or ends. THAT is not going to change either.

  • The baby in her womb is either male or female. They are human beings since conception. That is why its considered a double homicide when a pregnant is murdered. 2 human beings are murdered.

  • That was a stupid response. What you never heard of is not the same as what exists.

    Given the tenor of your question, it was to be expected. A typical ignorant, self-righteous busybody who wants to stick their nose in a doctor/patient relationship, medical professional ethics and informed consent.

    The first article demonstrated the typical late term abortion patient. A woman intending to keep her pregnancy who could not for medical reasons.

    The second shows the medical profession is at the forefront of opposing “late term abortion” laws as medically dangerous for many patients.

    BTW, the reasons a woman has an abortion are not for your approval or disapproval. Her body is her own and her right to terminate a pregnancy is not premised on your permission or input. Your opinion here simply does not matter anyway.

  • I served on the governing body of the RCRC for 30 years. It was an exhilarating experience with Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Unitarians, etc, who valued women’s health, rights of conscience and religious liberty. — Edd Doerr

  • Then you are slamming the more than 50 millions women worldwide every year who find it necessary to terminate problem pregnancies.

  • Its fetus. So what? Its genetically human. So what? And laws regarding feticide underscore that the fetus is NOT a human being and is NOT a person. If it were, then laws regarding homicide would be in force when a woman is hurt badly enough to miscarry or when a pregnant woman is killed But they do not. Separate, additional laws had to be written specifically to address situations when that happens. Good job looking uninformed and ignorant.

  • Thw above from a guy (male) who puts narrow theology above the health, rights of conscience and religious liberty of all women.

  • Im anything but ignorant. Youre the one who apparently never took a biology class and is functionally illiterate when it comes to fetal development and abortion. Braying about blacks and Jews makes you look a fool. You continue to ignore the woman who is pregnant, her rights, and the fact that a fetus has no rights, has never had any rights. The fetus is genetically human and its living tissue and cells. So what? Your only argument is the misogynistic delusion that the fetus is more valuable and more important than the woman who is pregnant, and that being pregnant reduces the woman to the status of brood sow because YOU and those like you see things that way. Its called control freak misogyny.

  • 2/3 of Americans, including American Catholics, are pro-choice and want government to butt out of women’s lives.

  • Thank you, Sharon, for filling in the blanks for the folks who have no respect for women’s judgment.

  • If it could be proven medically that carrying the baby to term would cause the death of the mother then that would make sense. The fact is, that our medical procedures are so good that this would be so rare as to be nonexistent.

  • Sharon Diehl. Still going strong much to my glee. I would like to hear these fetus freaks one time tell the boys and men to keep their zippers zipped. I guess the “double standard” is still alive. Sharon, keep up the spirit.

  • Mark/Bob would like to forget that 2/3 of the voters in predominantly Catholic Ireland last May came down on the pro-choice side

  • Excellent comment, Sharon. Also, Francis Crick and 11 other Nobel laureates told the SCOTUS pretty much the same thing in an amicus brief years ago.

  • Since I don’t buy the idea that rights are immutable, why not? We are already fine with the concept in other “rights” and right across the border from us.

  • We don’t live in Ireland.

    Anyone who has spent any time in Ireland in the last thirty years knows that “predominantly Catholic” means nominally Catholic.

    So, if 2/3 voters in Ireland jump off a bridge, will you jump off a bridge?

    And so on.

    Logic is simply not your shtick.

  • I assume you’re descending to name calling in hopes I will reblock you so that you don’t get annoyed with facts.

  • Abortion is not murder. In 1975 the Ford administration’s NSSM 200 report recommended universal access to contraception and abortion, but conservatives and conservative religious leaders have blocked that.

  • But in fact, you can. Simply do a normal C-section with a survivable baby, instead of doing a Ninja Blender on it.

    But the New York Democrats are now a Terrorist Organization. Andrew Cuomo is the new El Chapo, it seems. He want his Ninja Blender for his Baby Salad.

    (Of course, the old El Chapo at least looked sane. This new one, absolutely does NOT!!!)

  • How far would you be willing to take that? No differentiation in laws between states, pushing foreign nations to follow similar laws, even going to war to force them?

  • Why was it exhilarating?
    That’s a really unique way of describing sitting on a board.
    I’ve sat on a few boards in my day and would describe none of them as exhilarating.

  • “Pro-choice people of many faiths, on the other hand, agree that when a woman is making reproductive decisions, others’ religious beliefs should not interfere”

    Life is not a religious belief, it is a fact. Life begins at the moment of conception, when else would it begin if not then. A religious belief would be that this time we are given here is to repent of our sins, not to change the definition of them. Murder is the taking of life, life begins at conception.

  • Disparaging blacks and Jews makes you look a bigot.

    As to biology, the science is clear that human life begins at conception:

    “Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception). Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being.” – Moore, Keith L. “Essentials of Human Embryology”, Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2

    The normal human life cycle – if all goes well – begins with conception, fetal development, birth, infanthood, childhood, old age, and death.

    As to:

    “ the woman who is pregnant, her rights”

    “a fetus has no rights”

    these are artifacts of the current laws in the USA, not a moral analysis, not necessarily how things ought to be, which is what the discussion is about.

    “Your only argument is the misogynistic delusion that the fetus is more valuable and more important than the woman who is pregnant, and that being pregnant reduces the woman to the status of brood sow because YOU and those like you see things that way. Its called control freak misogyny.”

    may have worked for you in the ‘70s, but that was then and this now.

    I have never met a woman under 40 who did not belief that a pregnant woman has a human life inside her. They may devalue it, although that is increasingly rare, but they do not share your views because they know better.

  • At 88 one would assume your interest in women has diminished a bit.

    So, let’s be honest: your interest is in trying to salvage the projects you’ve been working on since 1966 as you watch them beginning to unravel as new generations don’t buy their baloney sliced thin by ideologues.

  • “Its nice for you to make obvious how poorly infoprmed and ignorant you are.”

    Correctly “its” should be “it’s”, a contraction for “it is”.

    As to biology, the science is clear that human life begins at conception:

    “The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.” – Langman, Jan, “Medical Embryology”, 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3

    The normal human life cycle – if all goes well – begins with conception, fetal development, birth, infanthood, childhood, old age, and death.

    Of course if your last course was undergraduate biology circa 1970 you may be rather out of date.

    “You also arent quite smart enough to comprehend that a very small fraction of a percent of abortions take place late in gestation, and a very small fraction of a percent of abortions are performed for profound congenital defects.”

    I already mentioned that a very, in fact a very very small, fraction of abortions are performed for profound congenital defects. If you read more and typed less ….

    Similarly everyone in the discussion knows that late term abortions are rare.

    The discussion is centered on morality, should be there be any and if so why, not statistics.

    The rest of your little temper tantrum is just that – a childish temper tantrum.

    A significant percentage of abortions abort fetuses which are not mindless, not insensate, not oblivious, and viable.

    The sonograms of fetuses trying to avoid the instruments of abortion, including “Silent Scream”, ended that silly propaganda long ago.

    To cap it with “That is science, that is biology, that is fact.” when it clearly is neither involves sniveling and foot stomping.

  • Thank for your slogan.

    Now, back to bona-fide arguments by serious commentators citing one or more facts.

  • It’s human life.

    The so-what? can be found:

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7241463_Human_dignity_in_the_Nazi_era_Implications_for_contemporary_bioethics

    This by far not a society’s first trip down devaluing and ranking human lives.

    “And laws regarding feticide underscore that the fetus is NOT a human being and is NOT a person.”

    would have read

    “And laws regarding nigras underscore that the nigra is NOT a human being and is NOT a person.”

    in 1853.

  • Because it was grreat to work with some really great people of many faiths who care about women’s rights.

  • Apparently justified by a coherent moral framework.

    I’m sure you’ve seen one at some point in nearly nine decades.

  • It is sad that all nations do not equally support peoples’ rights, but we can’t force them to be nice.

  • It’s “serious” I am sure you meant.

    Sometimes you lapse back into your native language, eh?

  • I of II

    cdcfoundation citation

    “The overall distribution of critical factors among pregnancy-related deaths identifies patient factors most frequently (42.6%), followed by provider (34.8%), and systems of care factors (Figure 9) (21.7%). Facility factors (.9%)are rarely identified, and community factors are absent from the Four Committee data. While patient factors are the most common, these often reflect patient factors that are dependent on providers and systems of care, which becomes evident when put together with class and descriptions, as we show below.”

    ***

    Ed. Note: percentages are from the accompanying graphic in the document.

    medicalxpress citation

    “The researchers found that 77.1 percent of women who gave birth in 2016 initiated prenatal care in the first trimester of pregnancy; 4.6 and 1.6 percent, respectively, began prenatal care in the third trimester and received no care.”

    centerforhealthjournalism citation

    “What I conclude is people here don’t know that they can receive care or that they’re afraid to seek it,” said Dr. Thomas Schlenker, who was in charge of Metro Health until August. “I don’t think we have been welcoming or doing the necessary outreach to pregnant women in Bexar County and that’s reflecting in the fact that almost 4,000 women showed up for delivery in 2014 who had no prenatal care at all. Zero.”

    “Certain groups of women are less likely to get early prenatal care: Poor, black, Hispanic, unmarried, lacking a high-school diploma and teens. A major factor is whether the pregnancy is unplanned.”

    to II of II

  • II of II

    nih citation

    “The association of cocaine use with maternal mortality and any drug/alcohol use with postneonatal mortality supports screening and identifying women using illicit drugs and alcohol during pregnancy. Increased collaboration with drug treatment programs and closer follow-up for drug-using women and their children may improve mortality outcomes.”

    ***

    Your articles demonstrate that it is not primarily inability to get healthcare, but failure to get healthcare that leads to poor outcomes. In addition abuse of drugs and alcohol has an adverse effect on the health and mortality of both mother and infant.

    These factors are well-known and have been for years. They explain the poor outcomes for inner city non-white populations and the relative ineffectiveness of interventions such as prenatal clinics in the inner cities.

    The same data demonstrates that when populations are stratified and and the low income high crime inner city populations extracted from the combined American infant and health mortality statistics, the result is comparable to the statistics in Western Europe.

  • Its mindless, insensate, oblivious tissue and cells. And you want to pretend it justifies treating the woman like she is nothing more than a brood sow.

  • JPinhead either you are pretending to be too stupid to understand what I said, or you actually ARE too stupid to understand what I said Neither option flatters you. But then if you and MarkConjob werent idiots you wouldnt be forced control freak misogynistic swine.

  • “Its (sic) mindless, insensate, oblivious tissue and cells.”

    It’s a human life:

    “Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)… The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.” – Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3

    “And you want to pretend it justifies treating the woman like she is nothing more than a brood sow.”

    And I didn’t make her pregnant.

    I do believe that with choices comes responsibility. It’s called being an adult.

  • Location, location, location. A woman is in charge of and owns her uterine contents–not you crazy misogynists.

  • Oh, you mean some quasi-religious people who loved the license to kill…
    You shoulda went to the gun range instead.

  • Our Lady of Guadalupe certainly showed great love for our Native American brothers and sisters. Jesus Christ, indeed showed no partiality to male domination, in casting first stones. But he also spoke the truth. With what love he talked to the Samaritan woman at the well, but he also did not hesitate to ask her to amend her life.

  • Good news! Christ came to save us from our sins, and offers eternal life to those who believe. Therefore, even though the nurse that testified before Congress about the baby that was left to die after an abortion saw a horrific deed, even though people continue to deny it, there is still hope. Love will prevail forever, and the Born Alive Infant Protection Act is an example of those who care.

  • You are apparently another pseudo scientist. Give me a New Testament quote. A Catholic serf in the middle ages apparently had a better grasp of science and philosophy than you.

  • Sharon Diehl, a friend of EdDoerr’s (see his comment on the exhilaration of serving on the board of the RCRC) spewed out a similar bunch, if you care to review them. I think you and I can agree that there are none in the New Testament, that they’ll be twisting around.. Indeed in Luke’s Gospel (1:39-46), we have the meeting of John and Jesus before birth, as told through the words of their mothers. Beautiful! That’s why I’ve blocked Sharon. She sent me, what you, are looking for!

  • Re:“Silent Scream”: “The “Silent Scream” is a piece of pro-life propaganda that is widely considered to be a hoax. The fetus in question is not of the stated gestational age of 12 weeks, and the details of the procedure are embellished. It is not proof of anything except the gullibility of people. “

    The “Silent Scream” has been debunked as a non-scientific propaganda piece for decades.

    “Many members of the medical community were critical of the film [Silent Scream], describing it as misleading and
    deceptive. Richard Berkowitz, professor of obstetrics and gynecology at Mount Sinai Medical Center, described the film as “factually misleading and unfair”. John Hobbins of the Yale School of Medicine called the film’s use of special effects deceptive, a form of “technical flimflam.” He pointed out that the film of the ultrasound is initially run at slow speed, but that it is sped up when Silent Scream surgical instruments are introduced to give the impression that “the fetus is thrashing about in alarm.” Hobbins questioned the titular “scream”, noting that “the fetus spends lots of time with its mouth open”, that the “scream” may have been a yawn, and also that “mouth” identified on the blurry
    ultrasound in the film may in fact have been the space between the fetal chin and chest.

    Fetal development experts argued that, contrary to Nathanson’s assertion in the film, a fetus cannot perceive danger or make purposeful movements. David Bodian, a neurobiologist at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, stated that
    doctors had no evidence that a twelve-week-old fetus could feel pain, but noted the possibility of a reflex movement by a fetus in response to external stimuli such as surgical instruments. The size of the ultrasound image and of the fetus model used was also misleading, appearing to show a fetus the size of a full-term baby, while in actuality a twelve-week-old fetus is under two inches long.”

  • Re: “As to biology, the science is clear that human life begins at conception”: The science is clear that humanity can genetically trace its lineage to 1.6 billion years ago and has been ongoing since.

    The first step in creating a new “human being” is NOT fertilization, but in sexual reproduction when ova and sperm are created through meiosis. During meiosis, chromosomes “cross over” and create genetically unique DNA combinations in sperm and ova. Sperm and ova are composed of protoplasm, which is the definition of being “alive”. Sperm and ova are life–human life. Wombsniffers declare that human life at all stages is sacred. Save those gametes! No masturbation for you!

    Dr. Robert Wyman, neurobiologist, is fond of saying that your mother or father started in your grandmothers womb, where germ cells originated ..and this is the start of your life.

  • Re: “The discussion is centered on morality,”: Morals are subjective, dear. My “morals” are that the woman walking this earth is of more value than a non sentient embryo or fetus. You and other wombsniffers, for whatever obscure reasons of your own, are fetal idolaters and value the non sentient over the sentient. In my “moral” world, that is ridiculous.

    This is a secular country, but it is a constant battle against legislation proposed on the basis of morals’” of someone’s personal religious dogma. This is why marriage equality is being passed in state after state. This is why abortion is legal because women own their own bodies.

  • Re: “But in fact, you can. Simply do a normal C-section with a survivable baby, instead of doing a Ninja Blender on it.”: Oh, you’re a physician? Do post your medical journal articles on your C-section procedures and cure of anencephalic, hydrocephalic, Dandy Walker Sydrome, and other fetuses with genetic abnormalities incompatible with life.

  • Re: “pseudo scientist”: Honey, I have an undergraduate and master’s background in evolutionary biology/geology, and a doctorate in geochemistry/geology. I don’t hide who I am.

    Re: “happier and kinder”: Sweetie, I’m a very happy person–I’ve been blessed with intelligence. Now why should I be “kind” to bible-humping dimwits, who think they know more than actual physicians and the pregnant women themselves, as to their reproductive health needs?

    Hey, honey, if you’re going to bible-hump, you own the entire Wholly Babble. You people sure like to cherry-pick.

    Re: “Good News”: What a stupid phrase. The New Testament supports slavery, claims that every person who remarries is an adulterer, and how nasty in the buybull’s tall tales that a deity chooses to torture a son to remove “sin”–snort–the omnipotent all-mighty deity has to inflict severe pain to remove “sin”? The horror tales continue–and proving it’s still a mean ole nasty deity.

  • Thank you. I cannot believe the dumba$$ery of these people that they WANT to believe that this reproductive health care law means that healthy full-term babies can be aborted–even though we keep pointing out that there are no elective abortions post 24 weeks, and that healthy fetuses are federally protected.

  • Take your bible-humping nonsense up with all our major mainstream health associations.

    American Medical Association: “[We] oppose legislative interference with the practice of medicine and a woman’s relationship with her doctor… Access to safe and legal abortion is an important aspect of women’s health care. Abortion is one of the safest medical procedures performed in the United States.”

    ———————————-

    “”The American Medical Women’s Association [AMWA] will oppose efforts to overturn or weaken Roe v. Wade, either directly or indirectly, as in the case of legislation which burdens access to the abortion procedure. AMWA
    considers all such laws and court rulings to interfere with the doctor-patient relationship, and thus to violate medical autonomy and pose threats to the individual as well as the public health.”

    ———————————

    “Safe, legal abortion is a necessary component of women’s health care. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists supports the availability of high-quality reproductive health services for all women and is committed to improving access to abortion….Induced abortion is an essential component of women’s health care. Like all medical matters, decisions regarding abortion should be made by patients in consultation with their health care providers and without undue interference by outside parties. Like all patients, women obtaining abortion are entitled to privacy, dignity, respect, and support.”

    ———————————

    Association of Reproductive Health Care Professionals: “Abortion care is a critical component of comprehensive reproductive health care, and ARHP supports a woman’s right to choose to have an abortion. The decision to continue or terminate a pregnancy belongs to the pregnant woman. ARHP opposes any judicial, legislative, or administrative attempt at the local, state, or federal levels to ban any abortion procedure or medical procedure to terminate a pregnancy.”

    —————————-

    Academy of Family Physicians:

    “RESOLVED, That the American Academy of Family Physicians support chapter efforts that oppose legislation that imposes on abortion providers unnecessary requirements that infringe on the practice of evidence-based medicine, and be it further

    RESOLVED, That the American Academy of Family Physicians oppose national legislation that imposes unnecessary requirements on abortion providers, reducing doctors’ ability to provide evidence-based and
    patient-centered care…”

    ——————————
    Oh look, international health organizations also support safe legal access to abortion:

    “…[World Health Organization] WHO, with support from an international consensus and prompted by human rights obligations, has responded to a major neglected public health need of women…until abortion is decriminalized, the
    tragedy of unsafe abortion will continue to haunt us and to threaten the life, health and rights of women. Furthermore, research aimed at developing simpler, improved methods for performing induced abortion has the potential to save the lives of millions of women globally.”

    —————————–

    The WMA (World Medical Association) recognizes the benefits for women who are able to control their fertility…The ability to do so by choice and not chance is a principal component of women’s physical and mental health and social well being.”

  • Re: “murder”: Pick up your phone and call 911 to report a murder! Do it now! Don’t be a hypocrite!

  • What a silly twit. Procreative sex, sweetie, slaughters immense numbers of “human life”. For every successful embryo that manages to implant in a uterine wall, it’s estimated that 5 to 9 embryos are lost or “’miscarry”. Half of these “lost” embryos are perfectly viable. Therefore, “spare” embryos, er, “spare human beings” in yourvernacular, are produced for almost every pregnancy (Drs. Michael Sandel;John Opitz; former President’s Council on Bioethics; Mange and Mange, 1999, “Basic Human Genetics”; Scott Gilbert, 2005, “Bioethics and the New Embryology). The death of embryos is a natural part of the procreation process in a woman’s reproductive system. Some researchers estimate the loss as high as 11 out of 12 embryos per year.

    Where is your outrage that all these “spare human beings” are callously being killed in the quest for one child to be born?

  • RE: “Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition.”:Get with the times and obtain a copy of the 10th edition, dear, to see what Dr. Moore has to say about abortion. There’s an 11th edition out, but I only read the 10th. You do read the actual entire embryology textbooks, don’t you? Snort.

    -Abortion (Latin, aboiri, to miscarry). A premature stoppage of development and expulsion of a conceptus from the uterus or expulsion of an embryo or fetus before it is viable–capable of living outside the uterus. An abortus is the product of an abortion [i.e., the embryo/fetus and its membranes]. There are different types of abortion:

    -Threatened abortion (bleeding with the possibility of abortion) is a complication in approximately 25% of clinically apparent pregnancies. Despite every effort to prevent an abortion, approximately half of these embryos ultimately abort.

    -A spontaneous abortion is one that occurs naturally and is most common during the third week after fertilization. Approximately 15% of recognized pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion, usually during the first 12 weeks.

    -A habitual abortion is the spontaneous expulsion of a dead or nonviable embryo or fetus in three or more consecutive pregnancies.

    -An induced abortion is a birth that is medically induced before 20 weeks (i.e. before the fetus is viable).

    -A complete abortion is one in which all the products of conception are expelled from the uterus.

    -A missed abortion is the retention of a conceptus n the uterus after death of the embryo or fetus.

    -A miscarriage is the spontaneous abortion of a fetus and its membranes before the middle of the second trimester (approximately 135 days).

    ————————–

    Note that nowhere in this developmental biology textbook, as well as other advanced level embryology books, are products of abortion referred to as “babies”, “children”, or “human beings”. I see the terms “embryo”, “fetus”, “conceptus” products…but nope…no “baby”, no “child”, no “human being”.

  • Parker12. What denomination you ask?The Episcopal Church, the United Church of Christ, the Unitarian-Universalists, other Main Line churches are all pro-choice. That leaves the Roman Catholic Church and the fundamentalist churches. Parker if you are really dead set against abortion there are a couple ways to prevent it. One is to push for artificial contraception for both women and men. The other is to hold men responsible for getting women pregnant. A message to men to keep their zippers zipped would be a good start.

  • You are ministering to me here, thank you! I treat RCRC’s prooftext (Numbers 5:11-31) the way I treat Post-Christian LGBTs’ prooftext. They have weaponized Scriptures to debunk Scriptures, not uphold them. It’s a formidable, if nasty (wicked, even), hermeneutics that I must respect, because Scriptures are Scriptures, regardless. My way, then, is to postpone judgment on all these allegedly Pro-Abortion Scriptures, until I, hopefully with the help of others, have critically studied them all.

    Thank you for that timely & timeless reminder of “the meeting of John and Jesus before birth” from “Luke’s Gospel (1:39-46)”!

  • Can you find her post? I will be happy to copy them and resend them to you for study. While I hope you find some way to convince her using the sword of the Spirit, It would be more beneficial for the rest of us, as her advance is quite twisted. For example, my avatar is of an unborn child in the womb. She continually calls me, therefore, “honey,” sweetie,” and “dear.” Unfortunately, while most people do this automatically with a precious baby, it is very clear that her use of these appellations is contemptuous.

  • Neal Bracken! Still spewing nonsense much to detriment of human knowledge. I would like to hear these fetus search and destroy advocates one time tell the girls and women to keep their knees together.

  • The Ford administration’s NSSM 200 report was such an embarrassment to the United States it was promptly filed away.

  • Abortionists are not specialists in infant medicine. Making children live is not what they earn their living doing.

    Real physicians avoid doing abortions.

  • Sharon is struck by my avatar. She continually addresses me as “honey,” “dear,” and “sweetie.” Does she ever call you that?

  • https://factsandtrends.net/2018/07/06/americans-want-abortion-legal-but-only-sometimes/

    https://www.npr.org/2018/06/13/619200865/americans-support-for-abortion-rights-wanes-as-pregnancy-progresses

    The internet has given people access to the information they did not have when Roe v. Wade landed on America.

    Most people understand now that abortion involves the ending of a human life, and favor more restrictions, up to and including putting enforceable limits on.

  • Main-line churches that condone the slaughter of innocents? Sounds like they should go back to their roots.

  • I guess that you have never heard of cloning. A skin scraping or sliced-off-pimple are a form of life and contain human DNA. Thus they are human life, They contain all the information needed to clone a human embry and eventually a human person.

  • So, what you’re describing is a process whereby tissue “A”, which is not a human life “B”, is transformed into a human life “B”.

    So this provides an alternate path to human life, but it does not render tissue “A” the equivalent of human life “B”.

    They are two different things.

    If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand the process.

    Btw, no human being has successfully been cloned.

    The results on higher mammalian life has been mixed.

  • How dare you! You were arguing for the death of women who would need to terminate a pregnancy to save their lives. Get bent. You are immoral scum.

    The right to terminate a pregnancy is the women’s and hers alone. I don’t care whether you agree with that or not. The right is there.

    You demand women be reduced to the status of property. You demand the death of women who need life saving care.

    You have no regard for life or any people. But I am supposed to believe you are concerned for the life of the unborn? What a load of bullcrap.

    This issue is just used as an excuse to make ridiculous self serving exclamations of moral indignation and act like a horse’s posterior.

  • ooops — I am a Democrat because the other party has moved away from the central positions it held years ago.

  • I may make an occasional spelling mistake, but at least I am not prone to seeking to have government impose a conservative theology on all women.

  • Ask American Indians in the Southwest about what the Catholic Church did to their ancestors? Your ignorance is inexcusable.

  • Child sacrifice is nothing new. Instead of Baal we have shiny new idols like self-actualization or empowerment or quality of life that we feed our children to. It’s no less primitive or monstrous.

  • Mark/Bob continues his campaign against women;’s health, rights of conscience and religious liberty with his scorn for real science. He wants government to impose his church’s offical theology on everyon even though most members of his own church disagree with him.

  • Very few abortionists these days are trained and licensed MDs.
    Few are none are specialist in infant medicine and may know less about viability than you do, if that’s possible.

  • Wrong. It was classified and buried for 17 years due to pressure from the Religious Right. Readers may Google the report and see for themselves how proper it is.

  • Trying to palm abortion off as “women’s health” no longer works.

    Everyone with internet access understands we’re talking about ending a human life.

    Trying to palm abortion of as “rights of conscience” no longer works.

    Since everyone with internet access understand we’re about ending a human life, and that we don’t extend “rights of conscience” to murder, that tapdance is out of date.

    Trying to palm opposition to abortion as “impos(ing) … official theology” also doesn’t work any more, because after watching Silent Scream normal human beings understand that ordinary decency could result in opposition to abortion.

    Try this: start calling “abortion” “ice cream”. Everyone loves ice cream.

    Your day came and went, and things are moving in a new direction.

  • Implementing it would have made the USA look like it was on a search and destroy mission against poor minorities around the world.

    I DO suggest people Google it.

  • I’ve shared my moral views.

    Religious views are another matter.

    As it turns out, however, unless a law compels you to attend a church, or not attend a church, it matters not a whit.

    People with moral beliefs, ethical beliefs, religious beliefs, and simply personal likes and dislikes are all at an equality when it comes to pass laws.

  • I recognize and respect the right of every women to follow her own conscience and her doctor’s advice in deciding what to do about a problem pregnancy. You, in contrast, oppose wmen’s rights.

  • I recognize the risks in placing differing values on human life and disposing of some for convenience. Where it has been done it has invariably led to catastrophe:

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7241463_Human_dignity_in_the_Nazi_era_Implications_for_contemporary_bioethics

    Doctors have no particular moral authority, with some opposing and others supporting abortion.

    The phrase “problem pregnancy” is a meaningless euphemism.

    I do not believe any right trumps doing the right thing.

  • Most people violate the speed limits on a more or less regular basis.

    Is there some point to noting misbehavior is common if not ubiquitous that supports a position you’re peddling?

    Would it be “But everyone else is doing it.”?

  • Doctors have moral principles and so do women. And “problem pregnancies” are a big problem for millions of women, whether they choose to continue a pregnancy or not. Mark/Bon, on the other hand, wants to have government impose his principles on all women.

  • So you stand in judgment on the women and men who work to insure women’s health and rights of conscience. Judge not lest ye be judged.

  • We’re not looking for a smorgasbord of “moral principles”.

    The majority of abortions are birth control, nothing more.

  • Ok. So if your neighbor wants to murder his children and you have no children you should keep your mouth shut?

  • postS, you mean. Quite the Multiple Hit & Runner she is. With cheerleaders here and there. I came onto this scene late, but her path & mine shall cross sooner or later. I hope I can stand up to her like you and others did.

  • Christ the judge will.
    On a side note – it’s not all women who would sacrifice their own. Be specific.

  • Re: “murder”: Still being a hypocrite and haven’t called the police, dear?

    No intelligent comment to make on the basic fact that our major mainstream medical organizations support abortion as reproductive health care for women? You think you know more than hundreds of thousands of our medical personnel? That makes you delusional, honey.

  • Re: “The mother does not own the human female in her womb who also has a uterus.”: Au Contraire, JPinhead. IVF embryos languishing in petri dishes have been considered “property”, and the “parents” decide on the disposition of
    their ‘property–implant them, adopt them out, donate to medical research, or destroy them.

    Massive cognitive dissonance comes into play when wombsniffers howl that the very same embryo in the IVF clinic that has now been transferred into the woman (owner’s) body is somehow, magically, no longer her property.

    Again: Location, location, location: Can you explain how a fertilized egg, which is frozen in a test tube iin an IVF clinic, is different from a fertilized egg inside of a woman? Does its location define its “personhood”?

  • You’re a flaming hypocrite, honey. If you’re going to shrill “murder”, pick up that phone and call 911! What’s stopping you?

  • Re: “Not for IVF”: Honey, try to form a complete cognitive sentence.

    “The idea that “life begins at conception” is not a scientific one. Since the disproof of ‘spontaneous generation’ (1668-1859), we have known that life only derives from life. Life arose billions of years ago and has continued since as a cycle. Assigning a beginning to a cycle (like the year) is arbitrary.”–Dr. Robert Wyman, neurobiologist

    “The claim that the embryo is the moral equivalent of a human person is implicitly rejected by everyone. One important fact about embryonic development that is often overlooked is that between two-thirds and four-fifths of all embryos that are generated through standard sexual reproduction are spontaneously aborted. If embryos have the same status as human persons, this is a horrible tragedy and public health crisis that requires immediate and sustained attention.”–Ronald A. Lindsay, Center for Inquiry

    “If the embryo loss that accompanies natural procreation were the moral equivalent of infant death, then pregnancy would have to be regarded as a public health crisis of epidemic proportions: Alleviating natural embryo loss would be a more urgent moral cause than abortion, in vitro fertilization, and stem-cell research combined,” declared Michael Sandel, a Harvard University government professor, also a member of the President’s Council on Bioethics.”

  • You immoral people have made laws to protect your murders. If you are a feminist; why are you allowing the murder of potentially more feminists, honey?

  • Re: ” Shouldn’t you be somewhere making sure no babies are born alive.”: Shouldn’t you be somewhere making sure women with pregnancy and childbirth complications die, Yorkie?

    Re: “inconvenience”: Sweetie, you demonstrate that the anti-choice anti-abortion harassment has never been about “the unborn”, no matter what you wombsniffers shriek. This is, and always has been, about controlling women, their sexuality, and fertility. Look at how many times people like you use stupid catch words like “inconvenience”, as though gestation is the equivalent of missing a bus.

    As I constantly point out to wombsniffers, you do not know a single, solitary woman’s circumstances other than your own. You do not know what is, or is not “inconvenient” for a total stranger. The store being out of an item you want is “inconvenient”. “Inconvenience” is what happens when you are stuck in line behind the new cashier in training at the grocery store. “Inconvenience” is needing to go to the bathroom before giving a speech. Going through 40 weeks of pregnancy with all of its health risks and toll on every organ in a woman’s body is hardly just an “inconvenience”.

    Strangers don’t get to define what is “inconvenient” in your life, you stupid twit, and you can’t do the same for others. The line is drawn: if it’s not your pregnancy, it’s none of your effing business.

  • Re: “less than mainline sect”: Snort. Honey, the “Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice” is comprised of around 40 religious denominations.

  • Snort. Shady, honey, you immoral bible humpers have had your misogynistic way for far, far too long. It’s the 21st Century, sweetie. Women are no longer under the boots of men, or clergy, or religious brain-washed minions.

    Still shrieking “murder”, honey? Call 911, hypocrite.

  • Re: “Real physicians avoid doing abortions.”:Snort. More physicians would do abortions, but they have expressed fear for their families and lives since there has been 11 murders of medical personnel associated with abortion, as well as security guards, receptionists, nurses, volunteers, and patients; kidnapping, arson, and vandalism. Doctors who perform abortions are brave people, who see the need to provide women with all aspects of reproductive health care.

  • You have already identified the methods used by the organization she speaks for. That is something I could not do. But I have been considering the Numbers quote, you showed us. In my old Bible, (Old Testament Douey), Numbers 5:29 says: “This is the law of jealousy.” Similarly in the same chapter about lepers being cast out of the camp (1-4), and the confession and offerings for sin (5-9), we have no longer any part. The proclamation of the Kingdom in the New Testament (Luke 4:16-21) supersedes all this. Christians are not going to throw lepers out of the Church. St. Damien of Molokai is an example of one who proves this. Even in the old Testament there are similar cases handled much differently, as in the tale of Susanna (Daniel 13). So to close. Thanks for all you do in unmasking their spurious use of Scripture, to mislead little ones.

  • Sweetheart. You need to get your facts straight:
    “Human life begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” “A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).” Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition.

  • Location does not define personhood. When the sperm and egg united its called a zygote. That is the beginning of a human being.

  • Hey, JPinhead–you don’t appear to grasp the basic fact that a woman owns her body. A woman owns her ovaries. A woman owns her eggs. A woman owns her uterus. A woman owns her embryos. IVF clinics have demonstrated that women own their embryos–women can use or discard them, or donate them for medical research. You are irrelevant in the medical decisions of women, JPinhead.

    Re: “That is the beginning of a human being.”:Sweetie, fertilization is just one event in the CYCLE of reproduction. The first step in creating a ‘new human being’ is NOT fertilization, but when ova and sperm are created through meiosis. During meiosis, chromosomes “cross over” and create genetically unique DNA combinations in sperm and ova. Sperm and ova are composed of protoplasm; sperm and ova are life–human life. People here declare that human life at all stages is sacred. Save those gametes! No masturbation for you!

    Dr. Robert Wyman, neurobiologist, is fond of saying that your mother or father started in your grandmothers womb, where germ cells originated ..and this is the start of your life.

  • Very insightful reading there, TC, of Numbers 5. You’re way ahead of me and I’ll remember your understanding.

  • If you don’t like murder, avoid getting murdered.

    Don’t impose your opinion on others.

    Slogans make bad arguments.

  • Just as we stood in judgment on Germany’s program of ridding the Reich of undesirables and defectives.

  • Sharon uses diminutives when talking to others to disguise a midget-sized ego and the internal realization that she is shoveling patootie.

  • No that author didn’t address the enslavement of Native people nor did it address the issue that Indian children were taken from their families and forcibly put in Catholic boarding schools where they were abused mentally and physically, denied to speak their language or practice their culture and religion. Forced conversion!

    You need to educate yourself about the Truth of Catholic missionaries.

  • Hey sweetie, The pregnant woman does own her body but she does not own the baby in her body. That human body is different than hers. Hope this helps clear up your confusion.

  • Your view of history is more selective than mine! Imagine yourself to be a Native American at the Coast of Mexico at the time of Cortez. Do you go along with him in the hopes of getting the Aztecs off your back, or do you continue to fight them on your own? History is full of wars and injustice. The Truth of Catholic missionaries is contained in that article. The reason the missions are still there and have adherents, is that many, many missionaries attempted to follow Christ, and to tell the Good News.

  • Thanks. I suspect most of them, in the context of the rest of the Chapter in question, may be easily eliminated.

  • Hey, doofus…the pregnant woman owns her body, which includes all bodily contents. You can’t demand any of her bodily parts–you can’t demand her blood, her kidneys, her bone marrow, any of her organs–you can’t demand her embryos. The pregnant woman OWNS her embryos–she can choose to gestate her embryos, or choose to abort. I trust this will not clear up your confusion about a woman’s civil rights and liberties because you must be an a$$hat male.

  • Didn’t we go through this already? You’re behind the times. Dr. Moore has an 11th edition of his “The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology”. I’ve only read the 10th, though, and will quote his section on abortion:

    -Abortion (Latin, aboiri, to miscarry). A premature stoppage of development and expulsion of a conceptus from the uterus or expulsion of an embryo or fetus before it is viable–capable of living outside the uterus. An abortus is the product of an abortion [i.e., the embryo/fetus and its membranes]. There are different types of abortion:

    -Threatened abortion (bleeding with the possibility of abortion) is a complication in approximately 25% of clinically apparent pregnancies. Despite every effort to prevent an abortion, approximately half of these embryos ultimately abort.

    -A spontaneous abortion is one that occurs naturally and is most common during the third week after fertilization. Approximately 15% of recognized pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion, usually during the first 12 weeks.

    -A habitual abortion is the spontaneous expulsion of a dead or nonviable embryo or fetus in three or more consecutive pregnancies.

    -An induced abortion is a birth that is medically induced before 20 weeks (i.e. before the fetus is viable).

    -A complete abortion is one in which all the products of conception are expelled from the uterus.

    -A missed abortion is the retention of a conceptus in the uterus after death of the embryo or fetus.

    -A miscarriage is the spontaneous abortion of a fetus and its membranes before the middle of the second trimester
    (approximately 135 days).
    ————————–
    Note that nowhere in this developmental biology textbook, as well as other advanced level embryology books, are products of abortion referred to as “babies”, “children”, or “human beings”. I see the terms “embryo”, “fetus”, “conceptus” products…but nope…no “baby”, no “child”, no “human being”.

  • Some laws good, some laws bad, including those that unduly restrict women;s rights of conscience or impair their health.

  • Sweetheart. You look goofy when you argue against the facts:
    “Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploid gametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.” Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation, Cell Tissue Research.

    “Although life is a continuous process, fertilization (which, incidentally, is not a ‘moment’) is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte” (emphasis added; Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Mueller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition.

  • stage of development (or non development), however, is quite relevant . the fetus is what is in the womb . the child is the living breathing one who can exist outside the womb .

  • the mother does own the right to make the decisions . no one else has that right before one is born .

  • “That is the beginning of a human being.”

    which will actually come to be after the nine months of development : that process that god created . the actualized human being is not the replicating d.n.a. of a zygote .

  • no, it just creates more confusion . who does have the right to the potential child ? you ? the state ? the church ?

    the mother has to be the primary decision maker .

  • No woman should ever have the right to murder the baby that is in womb. Monsters only do that kind of thing.

  • whether killing a fetus is homocide varies by state . most of the laws, that say that it is, were enacted in the early years of this century when there was a push to redefine the fetus as equal to a born child . before 2000 there were no laws or no clear laws in most states .

    but the reality remains when a pregnant woman is murdered, one human being is killed and one potential human being is killed . they are not equal no matter how much you re define the words or change the language of the laws .

  • Laws that infringe religious liberty are generally unjust. And BTW courts hand down “opinions”, as in Roe.

  • Fertilization is just one event in the CYCLE of reproduction, JPinhead.

    “…a biology textbook…shows life as a cycle. There is no start point. Fertilization is just one of the events going around the cycle. This is the essence of sexual reproduction.”–Dr. Robert Wyman, neurobiologist

    Of course, with my background in evolutionary biology, I view reproduction in a science-sense, not a fundie bible-humping sense.

  • Re: “baby that is in womb”: “The argument that a fertilized egg or embryo is somehow a prepackaged human destined
    to be born contradicts all that scientists have learned. Knowledge of human embryology is why biologists use words like “zygote,” “blastula,” “embryo” and “fetus”, not “baby.” Possibly the public’s attitude toward abortions would have
    been more mature and reasonable if students had learned some basic human embryology in school. But instead, in dozens of states students are only taught that “abortions murder babies” and legislators continue to pass laws based on medieval theologies and pseudoscience that in effect, treat women as obligatory breeding machines. Who is asking the question: when will women, themselves, achieve full personhood?”–Charles L. Rulon, Emeritus, Life & Health Sciences

  • “Abstract:

    Abortion is a universal phenomenon, occurring throughout recorded history and at all levels of societal organization… Sociodemographic analyses indicate that individuals who disapprove of abortion differ from those who approve of its availability in that they are more likely to be Roman Catholic or fundamentalist Protestant; are, in general, more strongly committed to organized religion; are on the traditional/conservative end of the spectrum with regard to women’s role in life, premarital sex, sex education and civil liberties; and tend to have achieved a relatively low educational level…”
    –Clinics in Obstetrics and Gynaecology; by R.N. Shain, A cross-cultural history of abortion.

    You appear to be both, fundie religious and undereducated.

  • Honey, you do realize, don’t you, that most embryos are never born? You have the attitude that if a women naturally aborts, well, that’s “nature” or your invisible megalomaniac middle-east “God”.. it’s no real loss if someone never knew they were pregnant in the first place. However, if a woman CHOOSES to abort that same embryo, at the same gestational stage as a natural abortion … all of a sudden it’s this damn catastrophe to you and the woma is a whore and evil and whatever else you bible humpers come up with.

    You anti-choicer bible humpers demand exalted status for an embryo that a woman does not want, and a ho-hum status to all other embryos. The unscientific claim is that there is a “moral” distinction between those embryos created and lost when a woman wishes to reproduce, and those embryos purposefully discarded because the woman does not wish to reproduce.

    This is lunacy on your part, dear.

  • “babies are born. How would they get back there?”

    lol! I would suggest drawing a semantic difference isn’t so helpful. There really is a continuum of human development between foetus and independent human.

    The difference is viability outside the womb.

    If a foetus can survive on its own without the help of its mother and has already been removed, it might be murder to end its life… though it also might be the most compassionate option. This is a matter for family courts to decide, and it’s a gray area.

    If a foetus cannot survive without its mother, and the mother does not wish to be bear it, she is never enslaved to bear it, no matter how many fundamentalist liars cry crocodile tears about its well-being.

    Slavery is illegal here. It’s a violation of the 13th amendment.

  • Pregnant women don’t refer to their babies growing in then as “zygote,” “blastula,” “embryo” and “fetus”. Rather they refer to them as their babies. Meaning they are human beings.

  • Honey- Human fertilization is the beginning of a human life. When the sperm and egg unite that is the beginning of a human being. That is medical science fact.

  • “A woman is in charge of and owns her uterine contents”

    It’s an argument for the rights of a mother to make life and death decisions on behalf of her own child!

    I would suggest it’s a gray area, though. Certainly, if children are suffering from terrible diseases, the mother and father should have some ability to end that suffering. There are certainly cases where parents do not have that right, such as the lunatic Christian™ Woman who decided to drown her children to save them from Christian Hell™.

    Where the bright red line is drawn is the enslavement of Women to bear children against their will. At no point is a Woman forced to bear a child, whether she “owns” it or not. The foetus’ well-being never takes precedence over her wish to be separate from it.

    …and abortion ban proponents don’t care one bit about the foetus’ well-being anyhow! For many of them, the torture of children is a side-benefit to enslaving and torturing Women, which is their primary goal.

  • the article on researchgate is quite good, but it does not speak the integrity of the individual to make their own decisions . it rather speaks of the immorality of society or of the state, the nazi state in the article, to dictate to the individual the moral choices to be made as regard individual humans .

    the article speaks not at all to the question of the ability of the mother to be able to control what happens to her during a pregnancy .

    and your attempt to rephrase what another commenter wrote in pseudo 1853 terms is argumentative at best and without meaning in this discussion .

  • Re: “…and, it is still murder”…says the fundie uneducated bible humper. So don’t have an abortion, honey. The only body you get to control is your own.

    Called 911 yet? Or still a bible-humping hypocrite? I suspect the latter.

  • no one, as you say, has the right to murder another human being . but here we are talking of the being before birth . we are talking of the fetus yet in the 9 month process that god made to create the human being .

  • the process of the fetus in the womb is unique . it simply does not compare to the “stages of life” that the born person experiences .

  • “The basic fact is that life simply is not as miraculous as we choose to deem it. According to University of Utah Professor of Pediatrics, Human Genetics, and Obstetrics and Gynecology John M. Opitz in his 2003 testimony to the President’s Council on Bioethics, 60 to 80 percent of embryos (i.e. unique fusions of genes from mother and father that encode distinct human beings) simply never develop further. They are either flushed out of the mother’s system without implanting into the uterine wall or are voided because of chromosomal abnormalities. Of this immense number of failed embryos, roughly half do not have gross genetic errors, and in fact carry the information for the creation of a viable human being. But they simply do not continue to exist, and their characteristic combination of genes, which will never again be formed in quite the same way, is lost.”–“Abortion Under The Microscope”; The Harvard Crimson

  • A human being begins when the sperm of the man unites with the egg of the woman. To destroy that is to commit murder.

  • replicating d.n.a. is not a human being . it is part of the 9 month creation process that god made to create a human being .

  • The WOMAN, dear, is the HUMAN BEING.

    The Ambiguity Of The Embryo: Ethical Inconsistency In The Human Embryonic Stem Cell Debate, by Katrien Devolder And John Harris

    “The first objection to protecting individuals because of their potential is logical: acorns are not oak trees… It does not follow from the fact that something has potential to become something different that we must treat it always as if it had achieved that potential…

    Given the moral importance attached to embryos and the fact that embryos are regarded by many as sharing the same moral status with the rest of humankind, it is the tolerated rate of embryo loss that is particularly interesting. Embryo loss in normal sexual reproduction, including unprotected intercourse not directly intended to result in conception, is certainly very high. [note: 60-80%]

    Those who attempt to have children in the light of these facts and indeed those who have unprotected intercourse and those who use contraceptive methods that risk embryo loss are all accepting that what they are doing or trying to do justifies the creation and sacrifice of embryos.”

  • You really need a graduate level developmental biology course, dear. Biological reproductive facts: How can a zygote/embryo be a “human being” when it is estimated that half of the zygotes/embryos generated are so genetically abnormal that they are incapable of developing further into anything resembling a human being? Then there are the embryos that miss the favorable window of implantation and go Whoosh! Plop! onto women’s hygiene products or straight into the toilet–are these “human beings”? Shall these “human beings” be scraped off of Kotex products and scooped out of toilet water to be sanctified?

    Honey, you do not grasp the evanescent nature of embryos. You have no concern for the immense number of dying “unborn human beings” produced and lost–the only embryo you Wah! Wah! Wah! over is one that a woman does not wish to gestate. It’s illogical.

  • I prefer bratwurst. Winners. With Jesus you too can be a winner. Good news is still out there, Sharon! You have only to reach out your hand, and our Suffering Savior who saves all from sin, will take it.

  • Late term abortions are very seldom necessary due to pregnancy complications. If the mother is in danger then the baby only needs to be delivered to remove the danger from the mother. Aborting the baby would actually take longer because of the time it takes to dilate which could take 24-48 hours. If the mother’s life is truly in danger why would the woman want to wait that long to be removed from danger. Delivering the baby immediately via c-sections would save the woman, not waiting 1-2 days for dilation and then removing a dead body.

    Think about it. Women whose preeclampsia is putting her in danger are sent right away for a c-section not an abortion. Yes, the infant could possibly be premature and not make it but both woman and baby are given a chance of survival.

  • Many did and many didn’t. It does no good to deny the reality of the past. Did you ever read Michner’s “Hawaii”. That will give you another view of missionaries, protestant in this case not Catholic.

    I wasn’t talking about wars and injustice I was talking about slavery and forced conversion! Very different issues.

  • Ah, slavery; you mean like those atheist nations the Soviet Union, Red China, North Korea, and so on.

    If you could cut the posing and simply state “I hate religion!”, it would save everyone a lot of time.

  • Still being a dimwit and still being a hypocrite, I see.

    There are over 100,000 ectopic pregnancies a year in this country, and an abortion saves the woman from hemorrhaging to death from ruptured fallopian tubes. Abortion saves the lives of women suffering from placental abruption, pulmonary hypertension, preeclampsia, and other pregnancy complications.

    Abortion is basic reproductive health care for women, and is considered so and supported by our major medical health organizations such as the American Medical Association, American Academy of Family Physicians (131,400
    members), American Medical Women’s Association, Physicians for Reproductive Health, and American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists.

  • “There are over 100,000 ectopic pregnancies a year in this country” That does not change that abortion is murder

  • Dr. Socks, do describe your methods to do a C-section on a woman whose blood pressure is threatening a stroke. I’d love to hear your medical successes. Perhaps you can be on call to instruct the attending physicians in cases of pregnancy complications…such as anencephalic fetuses wherein there is an amniotic fluid build up, threatening to burst the woman’s uterine membranes. You can tell the attending physician what to do to remove all doubt as to the best course for treatment.

    Write to the doctors of these women and tell them what they could have done instead for the inviable fetuses.

    https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/07/late-term-abortion-29-weeks-dana-weinstein/

    https://therumpus.net/2